Hi Seil,
Yes it is true that this PJPII bush is not established enough to expect optimal performance. The Double Red Knock Out nearby to it however is that same age, and no surprise it is fully clothed with perfect dark green leaves to the ground, whilst of course poor ol PJPII remains but a few bare sticks with nearly all leaves defoliated (except the top most).
It could do with some “fixing” LOL!
Well, I hardly think it’s fair to compare an HT to a KO, lol!
That is my point. How can we make a HT get the KO kinda resistance?
Oh, I agree, that’s my dream rose too! But it doesn’t exist yet. So I never compare my other roses to KO because I think that’s an unfair playing field. Most of them weren’t bred with health and vigor as the top priority. Particularly the HTs. When someone comes out with one that they say is as resistant and vigorous then I’ll compare it and see.
Roses should be compared against eachother in terms of disease resistance. How else can we determine their degree of resistance if we do not comapre them? This helps us as breeders if we are interested in breeding for disease resistance. So many roses out there are marketed as vigorous and resistant but are in fact duds in certain climates.
Hi Warren,
Your posting above is thought provoking. Why the teas?
The truth is, I still love PJPII. Its breeder has done a fantastic job to take it this far.
I am a total sucker for deeply fragrant roses!!
It would probably do well in my climate. My mom lives in a wetter climate.
I do compare roses to each other just not ones from very different eras of breeding or ones that are/were bred specifically for exhibition or the florist industry to garden roses. Times have changed and the priorities are very different now than they were in the 40’s to 80’s, and possibly longer, when the main criteria was the size and form of the bloom and not much else. Even fragrance was nearly lost to all those roses because it wasn’t part of that criteria. When disease resistance became the thing people wanted we got KO’s and Icebergs and a few others that are healthier in more places. So I don’t think it’s fair to use them as a standard to compare the older ones to.
In the case of PJPII, it is indeed a newer rose and one would think that it would have better resistance than it does. But I also think that the main thrust of that breeding program wasn’t so much disease resistance as it was a better white HT that didn’t ball if you walked past it holding a glass of water. And for that I have to say it is better than any other white I’ve ever owned. It’s petals have much more substance and rarely ball and only when we’ve had way more rain than we usually have.
Of course I compare my seedlings with these healthier roses because I want to breed healthier roses. I’d very much like to breed that HT that is both gorgeous and truly disease resistant!
I hope you do breed it, best of luck!
Hi George;
why the Tea’s, they can tolerate that Sydney weather better than those roses bred from cooler climate origins.Breeding with Tea’s will give you alot more tolerance to warmer humid climate where BS is prevelant. Its just a thought for you. What you have to take into consideration is that alot of threads here, people are talking about zones which are a lot lower than ours. In OZ its temperatures do not go down to what these fellows experience and as for our summers we probably stay hotter for longer periods of time.
If you follow the Latitude line starting at Los Angeles and through the USA, the states that fall in that zone should be similar to us at home (talk to these people).
That map is quite deceptive, Warren. You’d be amazed at the bazillian micro climates just within the City Limits of LA. Three miles can make a fifty degree temperature difference. Those same three miles, even though it doesn’t seem like much an elevation change, can eliminate the ability to grow frost tender plants, or make it impossible to grow anything requiring the slightest amount of chill. I can’t grow hydrangea here on the hill, yet at the bottom, they flower most of the year in half day sun and they’re not the new Endless Summer varieties, but the standard macrophylla. I can grow citrus, avocado, just about any rose you can think of, hibiscus sinensis and many of the species flower year round in the yard. I have no whitefly nor sawfly issues, but they are horrible just over the top of the ridge and down to the coast. Black spot and rust are issues on particularly susceptible varieties most of the year and extreme now and early spring/summer. Yet, five miles toward the ocean, mildew and occasional rust are the issues, as well as sawfly year round. It makes for some testy shopping experiences when you have to qualify exactly where someone lives before you can accurately suggest anything for them. Kim
George; Here is a HT X China, Baronne Ed Rothschild X Mutabilis, it is semidouble and as you can see the bud form is not to bad. This seedling is fertile only in the pollen and if crossed back to HT’s the form would come back pretty easliy I reckon. Health wise it is very good, Growth and vigour excellent. There is a pic of it in the page link.
Cheers Warren
Hi Warren,
It is all thought provoking.
Thanks for sharing. I am thinking…
Kim,
Those are great points that you raise, also.
I also know that many breeders here would rather breed with dirt than any HT. I can also understand their point of view.
I have used PJPII pollen in breeding this season, in a very limited way. I dunno why, but I am intrigued with it.
Hi Warren,
I spent some of this afternoon looking at your roses on HMF. I can’t get that white seedling with the red stamens out of my mind - stunning!
I was looking at the world Zone Map the other day. It doesn’t show cities, counties, parishes - well, the point is I couldn’t reckon the boundaries of NSW to tell whether it is primarily zone 9 or 10. I was guessing 10.
Link: theplantencyclopedia.org/wiki/The_World_Plant_Hardiness_Zone_Map
Oh yeah, I saved the map image, opened it up, and enlarged it which really helped seeing it, but…
Ok George first;
What I should have said, if I lived in Sydney or North of it, I would consider using warmer climate cultivars to breed with. I am not anti HT, 95% of what I bred last year were pure HT X HT, but mind you I still love the form of old style garden roses along with their perfume. If your wondering why the high percentage Of HT crosses, some one challenged me, and once the gaunlet had been thrown, I could not refuse (must be the half Scot in me)LOL.
Now Sandandsun;
Just had a look at one of my big rose books, a lot of OZ is classified Zone 9, the central tablelands are zone 8, then you have the tropics up north. I think Zone 9 covers the temperature part of it but not the humidity which different areas within that Zone 9 experiences. Here in Deniliquin we are zone 9 but have humidity levels during the summer of 20 - 30%. BS only becomes a problem if we get a lot of summer rain , which is not very often.
I understand the resistance to using HTs for anything. I’m taking the path of searching out the best resistance I can find and utilizing that. Cliff Orent passed on a Harkness floribunda to me that is reported to be able to be grown in many “no spray” gardens in these parts without issue. There is very little information about it on HMF and nothing I can find anywhere else. Bedont has been completely clean here, even being stressed in a pot with disease around it. Pretty flowers, excellent foliage, no fragrance, but healthy is healthy. I wish there was more info about it, though.
There has to be other HTs and newer floribundas out there with some good genetic combinations. Finding them is the difficult part. Kim
I am pretty sure Royal Philharmonic is bred from Elina and Savoy Hotel. Its like Pascali 3.0
Harkness seems to like to have a preference for specific parents in different combinations, but also likes to keep them veiled.
