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Those are beautiful! Do they have fragrance? Thank you for sharing your knowledge in your posts. I’ve been doing this hobby 9 years, but ALL guidance is SO appreciated. (One season I grew 125 seedlings and managed to kill most of them with my ignorance.)
I do not breed for fragrance. People SAY they value fragrance but the percent of the time they smell a rose is low. What ultimately gives more pleasure are hybrid-tea form on an attractive, disease-resistant plant. That’s what I breed for.
Each to their own, the reason roses are king to me is because of their fragrance. I might be breeding Dahlias if they had scent. I understand the average buyer doesn’t care nearly as much though.
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Maybe not as much as you and I. But in any case, I notice that many visitors of Rose Shows, official Rose Gardens, Garden Centers, etc. repeatedly touch roses with their noses and sniff them. From this fact I conclude that people generally like and appreciate the scent of roses.
Maybe the average buyer doesn’t, but most rose enthusiasts do.
One thing I’m aware of as an amateur breeder that can only manage a small number of seedlings per year is that if one of my seedlings will ever reach the market it will most likely be through small, niche nurseries and it will probably be a niche product.
I can’t compete with commercial breeders. I can’t physically handle more than a couple hundred seedlings per year. Austin, Meilland, Kordes and other big breeders grow hundreds of thousands seedlings every single year: they will have better seedlings than I do if I just do the same crosses they do. And on top of that, they have a marketing budget and a brand name I do not have.
This is to say that maybe fragrance is not that relevant for the big public, but it may be what tells your variety apart from the hundreds of new ones introduced every single year.
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The more roses I grow from large-scale commercial breeders, the less I believe that their numbers of seedlings and selection prowess are actually responsible for their success, and the more I believe that their commercial dominance is due mostly to market access and name/brand recognition (and sales numbers, considering that a large percentage of rose growers probably live in regions where it is much less challenging to grow roses than my own, and are therefore more easily satisfied).
That doesn’t change the reality that they will outcompete small-scale breeders practically every time, of course, but it is a sad spotlight on the fact that some very good roses for many areas where traditionally “commercial” roses cannot grow well will likely go unpromoted, and their raisers will likewise go unrewarded for their efforts to create them. Meanwhile, poorly adapted roses will be promoted heavily and will sell very well (at first). No worries, though: the failures will be replaced by “improved” replacements from the same commercial predators next year.
Breeding for maximum profit is a very different venture from breeding for maximum human/experiential value, and the inconvenient truth is that these two approaches only rarely intersect strongly. When they do, commercial interests will practically always be privileged over others.
Stefan
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It is befuddling to me how many not-good roses get introduced by the majors. You’d think they’d want to introduce great stuff. I mean they aren’t doing 400,000 seedlings a year as I believe Meilliand does if it wants to introduce crap. I dunno. I’m not at all sure whether the majors will introduce my stuff.
@mnemko “the majors” have NO incentive to introduce any of our stuff. Every one of them have heavy investments in R&D as well as established sources they go back to time and again. They already own the patents or have beneficial arrangements already in place so why add a small source? Just think, the stuff you think isn’t “great”, is very likely the best they had to choose from. A friend has submitted stuff to Certified for many years, I mean TONNAGE, with a few introductions. The stuff they ignore would make you cry, but that’s they way it works.
Well, we started like you a long long time ago (174 years ago), not in a galaxy far far away (just across the Atlantic) 
Jokes appart, we are testing an releasing varieties from amateur breeders too : Will Radler (US), Jim Sproul (US), Nola Simpson (NZ), Mr. Aya (Japan), Yang Yuedji (China), Mathilde Ferrer (Spain) …etc.
We invest 1.2 million Euro per year in R&D (including testing seedlings from amateur breeders) and sure we build through out the years some trademarks that have a certain value on the market (EDEN ROSE®, BACCARA®, KNOCK OUT®…)
Fragrance represents 40% of the demands ;), 25% original color, 25% a great performance
Always remember that my grand father, Francis wasn’t great and rich before Peace was released in USA by Mr. Pyle. And that Will Radler wasn’t known before KNOCK OUT® radrazz was tested in our landscape trial system and released in USA
Quantity over quality is not working, keep breeding what you believe in
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Not true, we do it
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Thank you Matthias, for your candor. And for keeping lines of communication open with the amateur community, both here and on HMF.
May I take this opportunity to ask a very basic, but important (to the amateur) question? If one of us has the temerity to believe that we have a creation worthy of Meilland’s attention, how does the initial communication with the organization begin? Is there an individual to whom these inquiries may be addressed? Are there prerequisites to expect, even before that first contact?
Thank you in advance!
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Hi Lee_Hull,
Well it was what Francis (my grand father) was doing already in late 30’s with Universal Rose Selection (URS) which was a group of breeders/growers who had the same catalog all over Europe (Dot, Mallerin…etc)
I think we are pretty approchable, but the best way is to send us an email, meet us during the WFRS events, if you are in USA, you can contact Star which is our partner since 1935 (we have the same trial methods, just aim differently as the markets are different)… meet us at rose trials… etc.
Short story : A really really small Chinese breeder who inherited his grand mother gene pool (collection of varieties) send via a friend who could write English a list of 50 varieties to all major breeders. The only one that replied was us. The varieties arrived, and, even if they are not (yet) commercial (lots of problem on own roots on basic soil), he gat 2 prize (Bronze and Silver) in Nyon Rose Trial, Switzerland. We made history with him as he is the 1st Chinese breeder that was awarded outside of China
Cheers
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Thank you very much!
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Matthias, thank you very much for restoring at least a little faith that egalitarianism is still possible in some pockets of the world of commercial rose breeding and introduction! When it comes to trialing roses with C-P/Star or Meilland, is there any sort of collaboration between the two? For instance, if a rose is deemed unsuitable for one regional market (U.S. or Europe), might the evaluation include consideration of potential value for the other market, and then share the results (or include an evaluator from abroad)? Or are roses strictly evaluated for the market where the trial is being run?
This also leads me to wonder what differences you see between those two particular markets. It’s unlikely that consumers and consumer demand are directly driving the market for roses here in the U.S., and the picture could easily become distorted when seen through the lens of our “Big Rosa” marketing machinery. It’s possible that consumers are actually very similar in their tastes/desires in the U.S. and Europe, despite any structural (and probably self-reinforcing) market differences.
Stefan
Thanks Stefan
CP/Star and Meilland are working on selections since 89 years (1935). Both selection program is similar in terms of testing appart from small technical differences :
The production in US is different than the production in Europe (Own Roots in field vs. Rooted cutting in pots + 60% of grafting in field) So a variety with a good ratio of own root in field (US) but that have bad results in grafting (yes it does happen) would be disregarded in Europe (and vice versa) unless exceptions (Francis Meilland Meitroni is not the best in Own root production)
Often, when being talked about potential market value of a variety, people tends to disregard the production factor which is key… no production possible = no grower interested = no plants on the market.
After that being said, for sure the “taste” and the reason for planting roses in US and EU are different.
US you have 2 markets : California and the BS land (the rest of US). Anything grows pretty much in California, so you can concentrate on big buds, lovely fragrances, strange colors…etc. As long as you don’t get too much Mildew and rust and for the rest, well, BS is always the #1 criteria. Also US is more utilitarian in terms of plants in the garden : No care doesn’t come for ideological reasons but more from “time is money”… Plants needs to perform in the front yard without putting too much efforts.
Europe is 27 countries, with different rose history, with local breeders (We are French, and we for sure perform better in France than in Kordes land or Austin land). Production markets and consumption markets are different, but plants can travel in from any point of EU without trouble. Hence the diversity you see from distance. But a good performer in Germany might not be a good performer in Spain …etc. So even within Europe, we have North Europe variety and South Europe varieties. Taste are also different in Europe, you won’t create a mediterranean garden the same way you create a Danish garden (Blooms from May to December vs. blooms from June to September)
So from our “lens of our “Big Rosa” marketing machinery” prior to say “it looks good” or “I like it” we have to check
- if it performs good in most of the Pedo-climatic conditions of consumption with no spray,
- if it can be produce by the local producers (propagation and finishing) with a good looking plant in the pot.
Then comes the marketing to appeal to a certain type of “users” which we divided in 3 main personnae (test of usage): - Collectors : They want something that other doesn’t have. They want a story, a name. They want to collect and they want diversity.
- Garden Deco : They plant roses because it is nice. They don’t care about technics, history…ect. They are buying a “furniture” for their garden.
- Outdoor Appartement gardening: They don’t have a garden, they want to have plants. But roses were not selected for a terrasse climat.
That’s where US and EU are similar. The % of market share is different in each country, depending in the housing market and the habits.
One fun fact about habits : countries that are “Catholic” vs. “Protestant”
Catholic garden are in the back of the house, hidden from the street and the view of your neighbors vs. Protestant garden is the front yard, for the community to see.
Just that is a huge difference between these 2 cultural zone in Europe.
Hope I answered all your questions
Cheers
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I find the customer demographics data utterly fascinating!
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Me too 
It really became my speciality. The most interesting presentation I saw was from PW (Proven Winner) which was explaining the study they made about the pot size… Women are buying the most plants in US, but pots are not easy to grasp with smaller hands, so let’s make plants that fits in a Venti Starbucks pot size… I was mind blowned
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Enjoyed “collectors” … and even if they collect “all commercially available of merit” … it’s still not enough … as there is still 10’s of 1000’s of them … so diversify.and try vinos of the world … helps assuage the disappointment of not getting the whole story … and legal ogr rustling gets attractive, as does hybridizing to get what they need for the craving.
When a private hybridizer gets it aesthetically right for the cold zone he gets it right … just need lots of real estate or HD pruning shears …Cdn’s Erskine’s “ Prairie Peace “ today (no real money in cold zone large roses until these come out from small breeders then the world’s their oyster for their name).
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Interesting conversation thread ending up a long way from the starting point. I have been crossing roses for about five years now since I retired, but I don’t expect to ever have lines for uptake by commercial rose companies. What is available to the amateur breeder is a lot of genetic variation in the commercial varieties so it is relatively easy to get something interesting from the crosses. I am not worried by an uptake by thousands of gardeners. I remember walking up and down some suburban streets in the 1960’s when I counted about 40% of the gardens had a Peace rose growing there. What I have been able to obtain are different rose lines named for each of my two granddaughters and one to name and give to my daughter on her wedding second time around.
This last one was scented, which was particularly appreciated.
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