Persian Yellow

I use Hazeldean instead of Persian Yellow. More fertile and better smell. What people do not understand with Persian Yellow is that when planted where the plant leaves do not get any water like under an overhang or under a spruce, the plants do extremely well. They easily take a -40.

Now that I know that Austrian Copper is a triploid. I plan to work with it if I can get some pollen or plant. This was my favourate rose as a child.

David, you have revolutionized the way roses are bred in my plot. The struggles you have reduced when I work with diploids by the simple statement triplod with diploid pollen. Do they have Nobels for counting chromosomes?

Johannes

David,

I looked at the article again … no mention of how the chromosome counts were determined. Maybe they just referred to the literature and assumed …

Karl

Thank you for checking Karl! Sometimes things get perpetuated in the literature as people keep citing others and it is just good to reconfirm for a number of reasons. Maybe a rose sold under a name is not the same rose originally described or we try to do our best, but make an error.

Hi Johannes! I’m excited for your work with diploids. I have to sort through my records to see what date I counted it, but I remember counting ‘Austrian Copper’ and it was tetraploid. ‘Persian Yellow’ I had access to was triploid. It would be great to go back down to the diploid level with ‘Persian Yellow’. ‘Agnes’ is triploid (rugosa x a foetida). I love that Ralph Moore bridged back down to diploid with ‘Topaz Jewel’ (triploid yellow mini x diploid rugosa). Hopefully with a good number of seedlings one can bridge back down to the diploid level with rugosas and the triploid ‘Persian Yellow’. Thank you for the encouragement to use ‘Hazeldean’ more. I have a wonderful patch from Paul Olsen. I also planted ‘Prairie Peace’ and they are suckering together. When they flower next year I want to isolate some stems of each and repropagate them and not put them right by each other. I tried crossing them each onto shrub roses a few years ago. The seed set was scarce and the seedlings displayed hybrid breakdown. I should try some other females and hopefully find some that they would combine more easily with. ‘Hazeldean’ (triploid) and ‘Prairie Peace’ (tetraploid) are both so beautiful and hardy in the Twin Cities. I love ‘Harison’s Yellow’, but these two definitely have a more tamed plant habit and sucker a bit less which is nice. I like that the flowers are larger too.

I assumed that Austrian Copper would’ve been triploid also, too bad

There are a few Foetida derivatives that are either diploid, or probably diploid.

Helen Leenders (Orleans Rose x R foetida bicolor)
Mevrouw Nathalie Nypels [Orleans Rose x (Comtesse du Cayla x R. f. bicolor)]
Geheimrat Dr. Mittweg [(Mme Norbert Levavasseur x Trier) x R. foetida bicolor]

The first two are strongly fragrant, so we know where the carotene got to. If they were crossed with a yellow Tea or Tea-Noisette we might get some more of the Foetida-type carotene in a diploid yellow rose. No doubt, other seedlings of these crosses would be more fragrant than yellow.

Karl

I used to have Isabella Sprunt. I was never able to get her to set seed with anything and I had to grow the plant inside. Too much work in and out of the fridge to keep it sprite. Then came Golden Chersonesse! A b**** to flower this far north but it lends some interesting genes Johannes

Hi Karl!!

Thank you!!! Great connections!! I counted Mevrouw Nathalie Nypels years ago and it is diploid. It is the female parent of ‘Sven’ 'Sven' Rose, which is a wonderfully fragrant diploid polyantha.

David,
I am very fond of ‘Mevr. Nathalie Nypels’. I once raised a fragrant, light yellow seedling from it. Well … maybe “cream” would be a more accurate description, putting aside my wishful thinking. The picture is not great, and the color isn’t right. But it’s all I have left of a promising little rose.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pictures/Y/yellownathalie.html

MNN was remarkably tolerant of heat and drought in Mission Viejo, CS. I had it growing in a gray clay, at the top of a steep slope. No mulch! But she was bright pink and fresh looking despite the harsh conditions. It also roots easily from cuttings, so I shared it with some of my co-workers.

Karl

And a few more possibilities:

Aschenbrödel= Petite Léonie x Rosa foetida var. bicolor (21)
Tip-Top = Trier x R. foetida bicolor seedling (14)
Mieze = Petite Leonie x R. foetida bicolor

And more ‘Nathalie Nypels’ derivatives:
Citronella (Mev. Nathalie Nypels x Donald Prior) Semi-dbl (15 petals), globular, fragrant, lemon-yellow; cluster. Fol. glossy. Branching; free bloom. (28)
Gnome (unnamed seedling x Mevr. Nathalie Nypels) Large, dbl, very frag, cream-yellow; short stem. Fol leathery, light. Bushy, dwarf. (14)
Titania (M. Leenders, '38) Mev. Nathalie Nypels x unnamed seedling. Large, very dbl., very fragrant, salmon-flesh to rosy white. Fol. leathery, dark. Vig. bushy. (14)
Aurora (M. Leenders, '41) Mev. Nathalie Nypels x seedling. Dbl., fragrant, salmon-pink tinted golden yellow and orange. (21) Bagatelle Gold Medal, '40.
Kees Knoppers (M. Leenders, '30) Mev. Nathalie Nypels sport. Large, semi-dbl., open, flesh-white; cluster. Fol. rich green. Vig., bushy. (14)
Kolibre (M. Leenders; int. Longley, '46) Mev. Nathalie Nypels x unnamed seedling. Bud long pointed; fl. large (3 in.), semi-dbl. (20 petals), very fragrant, red; small truss. Fol. bronzy. Moderately vig.; free bloom.

Roses can do some strange things with chromosomes. How did ‘Citronella’ end up tetraploid when the seed parent was diploid?

Karl

David, I heeded your advice this season. My Persian Yellow had just a few blooms, and I tried to collect as much pollen as possible.

I also tried pollinating every blossom that I emasculated, to no success. (this is why I posted a couple weeks ago about trying to graft PY onto something else to get seed fertility.)

Considering the scarcity of blossoms and pollen from my small plant this season, I had quite a few hips on various roses. I can’t remember them all right now and I haven’t cataloged my seeds yet this year. I have one hip from PY left on High Voltage. I have quite a few seeds from Yellow Brick Road x HV. Others, off the top of my head, include L83, Plum Perfect, and Midnight Blue. Kinda curious about that one…I hope I get a plant to bloom. (pink?)

When I get my seeds entered into a spreadsheet I can email it to you, David, just for fun.

The seed parent ‘Citronella’ likely had an unreduced gamete. In bearded Irises it is very common. I believe that 1:40 or even more diploid x tetraploid result in tetraploids. I assume that diploid Chinas and Teas like ‘Old Blush’ went through the same process.

Something even stranger happened when Tantau crossed Baby Chateau x R. roxburghii (tetraploid x diploid). The three offspring were all tetraploid, and aside from some fairly obscure traits, nothing obviously Roxburghii turned up even in later generations.

I should say that the “mystery” is that diploid x tetraploid can sometimes give diploid progeny. Something even more profoundly odd was found in strawberries (Fragaria) when a diploid x octoploid cross gave one diploid seedling that was definitely derived from the pollen parent, despite the loss of chromosomes.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/East/East_Maternals.html

And Rubus can be just as screwy.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Britton_Instability/Britton_Instability.html

The Rosaceae is funny that way.

Karl

As I search the literature for Rosa foetida, it is frustrating to learn that it can be found (whether naturalized or endemic) over such a large area, yet we are unable to get new accessions for breeding. I have found mentions of Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, Syria, Crimea, India and Tibet as places where the species reportedly grows. Then there’s this:

Indian Journal of Traditional Knowledge Vol. 4(2), April 2005, pp. 208-220
Traditional practices of herbal medicines in the Lahaul valleys, Himachal Himalayas
Virendra Singh & N.S.Chauhan

  1. Rosa foetida Herrm (Rosaceae)
    Locality: Keylong (Alt 3000 m)
    Local name: Gulab
    Plant is liked for its beautiful rich scented yellow flowers. A native of western Asia, has now naturalized in the cultivated areas of Keylong.
    Flowering: June-September
    Uses: Fruit is used to treat dysentery and weakness. Fruit is also taken orally to treat.

Fruit! How could the fruit of a supposedly (nearly) sterile species become part of the local Materia Medica?

Or, is altitude an issue?

Darwin wrote, (‘Double flowers-their origin’, Gardeners’ Chronicle, no. 36, 9 September 1843, p. 628.):

“It is well known that plants (and indeed animals, as I could show by a series of facts) when placed out of their natural conditions, become, often from apparently slight and unintelligible causes, sterile. How many American plants fail in producing pollen in this country! the anthers of the Persian and Chinese Lilacs, as I observed this summer, are as destitute of good pollen as if they had been hybrids. Other plants produce good pollen, but are defective, as it appears, in their ovules, as their germen never swells. Linnaeus has remarked that most Alpine plants, when cultivated in the lowlands, are rendered quite sterile. In most of these cases, we see that sterility is compatable with long life and health.”

Cole (1917) examined the pollen of various Rosa spp. growing at the Arnold Arboretum. She was quick to blame “hybridity” for the high proportion of bad pollen of some species, while neglecting the possible influence of environment. For example, R. moyesii is known to be much more fertile when grown on its own roots in light, sandy soil than when grafted. And others with the lowest proportion of apparently good pollen originated in the Himalayas.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/Cole/Cole_pollen.html

Karl

Hey David!

You mentioned “hybrid breakdown” in the crosses you made with Hazeldean and Praire Peace onto shrub roses. For those of us who are scholars of plant breeding and genetics can you please explain what hybrid breakdown is and why you think it happened? Normally one would expect heterosis to occur in such a situation right? The hybrid I have of Gemini x Prairie Peace, kindly given to me by Jackie, is a vigorous unique specimen of a rose. Have yet to see any foliage diseases or powdery mildew on it either.

-Andrew
image.jpg

Andrew, if I may add my “little bit of knowledge” to your question to David Z.
I have a very old ‘Clb Peace’ rose, it’s base color is what I would call cream, in one’s that I have seen it of late is white. So what I am saying is the further you go from the ‘parent wood’ things change. Some other members might be able to explain better, but this is from my eye sight, Another one that appears to have done it is one we have here in Australia named 'Elina", it also has lost it’s cream.
Regards David.

David,
This “breakdown” could be due to lack of care in vegetative propagation.

Bosley: The Nurseryman’s Rose Responsibility (1937)
“I began to notice that Rev. F. Page-Roberts was just an ordinary yellow rose—a long way from the beautiful two-toned rose it is pictured. We set about to find the most highly colored blooms, and to cut bud-wood from only those very sticks. Continuing this over a number of years, Rev. F. Page-Roberts began to look like its color illustration. President Herbert Hoover has not been with us long, but already it has shown signs of degenerating. We budded 100 bushes from the best blooms of “Hoover,” to find that only about six of this 100 were very superior, and from this six we began to rebuild our strain. Texas Centennial, just introduced, is beginning to show slight signs of variation, but with careful selection of bud-wood it can live with us as an outstanding rose variety. (Some sorts, like Radiance, seem so firmly fixed that all efforts to improve the strain seem useless. Many times we have found improvement on members of the Radiance group, only to find, next year, that it went back to the type again.)”
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/BosleyBudSelection1937.html

Viviand-Morel: Amateur Rose Breeding (1914)
“In a very different way, M. Dhumez was able to get from Nature more than she had ever wanted to give. Disregarding the field of selection of seedling variations, and confining himself to varieties which he had bought in the open market—some of them little known, such as Prince de Bulgarie, and others long since used by everyone, some of them for a long time past, such as Bastide rose—M. Dhumez was able, by a very sure selection, a judicious choice of fertilizers and, especially, of method of operation, to get such remarkable results that they would have been declared impossible: the size of the flowers, the absolute perfection of form and color of Prince de Bulgarie, Marquise de Mores, Agathe Nabonnand, Agathos and others, won as soon as they appeared not only the rapt astonishment of the public, but the highly-valued admiration of experts.”
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ViviandMorel/morel.htm

Blanks: On Selecting Budwood (1938)
“One of these plants, a Mrs. Pierre S. du Pont is planted in the middle of some Mrs. du Ponts from one of our larger, much-advertised, mass-production nurseries. (The one whose test-gardens I travel about 300 miles each year to see.) The difference is so apparent that a visitor to my garden before the plants had bloomed, who knew nothing about this affair, asked why I planted a Radiance in a bed of Mrs. du Pont!”
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/BlanksBudwood1938.html

Knight: Improving roses by bud selection (1930)
“Have you ever, when looking through your rose bushes, Teas and Hybrid Teas particularly, noticed that on one side of some of the bushes the growth is stronger than on the other, and that on some parts of the plant the blooms are always of better quality, perhaps in colour, perhaps in form, or maybe in both. This is the wood to work on and by selecting budding eyes from those strong, clean branches or from the shoots that carried those good blooms, a large percentage of the young roses will reproduce plants strong and healthy, and will carry blooms similar to those that were on that part of the plant from which the buds were taken, whilst buds taken from the weak side of the bush will have a tendency to grow weaker plants with poor quality blooms. If the very best plants are retained and grown on, and bud selection is systematically practiced from year to year a better strain of many roses can be worked up.”
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/KnightRoses1930.html

Vegetative selection has also been used to advantage with other plants.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/VegetativeSelection.html

Karl

Andrew B,
There is always a great chance of heterosis occurring in hybrids, but there are time when species hybrids go wrong as well. Rosa forrestiana when crossed with Hybrid kordesii’s went belly up, it germinated formed true leaves and then stoped, months later is just died. The with R. davidii X Hybrid Kordesii, it germinated last year ,put out true leaves and then produced no new growth. It is only in the last few weeks it has decided to grow. I put this down to genetic incompatability http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/Hybrid-Incompatibility-and-Speciation-820.

One thing to keep in mind about heterosis. When creating hybrid triploids eg (Iceberg) heterosis was created due to the genetic gain from the tetraploid. If these triploids are seed fertile, like some (Icebergs) a second heterosis can be achieved when fertilizing with a tetraploid by again increasing genetic gain. I always keep this in mind when creating new triploids hybrids, but I do get disappointed when I see the green centre forming.

Karl, to your selection, I would add the section in A Rose Odyssey, by Dr. J. H. Nicholas were he relates how the HPs in the US had been almost ruined by propagating from “blind wood”, to the point of nearly becoming unflowering climbers. He found, at the nephew of the introducer of General Jacqueminot, bushes of nearly “hybrid tea quality”, accomplished through proper bud selection. He further stated sufficient stock had been procured to restore J&P’s stock of General Jack to what it had originally been. I don’t have the precise pages nor exactly quote as the book isn’t at hand, but that was the gist of his account. The quote may be in the references for the rose on Help Me Find, but the site is having issues right now, so I can’t check.

Thank you Kim for that paraphrase. The original is on Karl’s site somewhere. I was just there browsing his various items on this topic and saw it, as you quoted. I also noted something interesting that should have been obvious to me but wasn’t. One of the other quoted writers makes note of it. Some roses are prone to sport different colors. Those are successfully selected and marketed. Examples include especially the line that includes Ophelia, Columbia, Mme Butterfly and so on. Also mentioned were President Herbert Hoover and Texas Centennial. We could include Peace for a more modern example. If we can select buds that differ in color expression level, why not for other factors such as petal number and internode length, and general vigor.

The example of apples is an apt one. Look at what is called Red Delicious today and compare it to the original. Bud selection has resulted in much redder skin coloring, larger apples, spur type bearing habit. Now that we know more about the many potential epigenetic changes that happen all the time in plant development, it shouldn’t be too surprising that things can go astray in epigenetic systems as well as more conventional genetics. The more layers of regulation, the more chances for changes.

Striped roses are the simplest example of an on-off switch flipping fast. The color breaks we see in Austrian Copper vs Austrian Yellow, sometimes on the same plant, are the next level. the stable changes yielding Chicago Peace, or Peaceport or Flaming Peace are less common and more stable. The Radiance vs Red Radiance or Knock Out vs Pink KO are other examples.

So bud selection, which has fair to good empirical support for roses, also has a plausible underlying mechanism. That should satisfy skeptics.

Two of the more dramatic examples of the apple selection are in chill hour reduction and the elimination of sugar formation. Taste any of the “Delicious” types, even the Gala, Braeburn, Fuji, even Granny Smith from markets then buy the same named variety from an apple growing region. They are NOT the same pieces of fruit. The commercial types have been systematically selected for degenerative micro sports to eliminate the production of sugar (hence, taste) to permit for up to two years of nitrogen storage and many, MANY weeks of lasting on the shelf in markets. The only commercial apple we have on store shelves here now which tastes like apples did when I was a kid, is Honey Crisp, and only for a very short season. They have too much sugar and don’t last at all compared to the reduced sugar, tasteless types.