Pemberton Musks - Which ones most worth using?

General Discussion
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I’ve been enjoying hybrid musks quite a lot, ‘Plaisanterie’ has been a dream to work with, at least I got a high germination rate from it and have over four seedlings that I’ve planted out. I’ve named one seedling, a believed cross with ‘Sven’ that’s the OP I’ve been talking about; ‘Enjoue’ which is a pun off of ‘Plaisanterie’ meaning ‘playful’ or ‘kittenish’.

Wondering about other ‘Trier’ derived stuff is worth tinkering with?

A lot of the them seem a bit repetitious, ‘Thisbe’, ‘Danae’,

‘Castillo’, ‘Francesca’ all sorta peachy-buff and yellow, my favorite color group. Any others stand out more than the others? ‘Clytemnestra’ seems the prettiest coloring of the bunch…

For musks I currently own ‘Darlow’s Enigma’ and ‘Plaisanterie’ and ‘Buff Beauty’. ‘Sven’, ‘Lena’ and ‘Ole’ are more polythana but do show musk traits.

For my china/tea/noisette mixes I have ‘Arethusa’, ‘Crepuscule’, and the mini ‘Softee’ as well as ‘Comtesse du Caya’ and ‘Mutabilis’, that’s really all my peach-pink-buff anything to do with musks/china/noisettes (except ‘Smith’s Parish’ which I have but I think that’s pretty infertile right?)

One of the things I wanna eventually do is I’m wanting to do some musk and or ‘Crepuscule’ crosses with more compact roses like ‘String of Pearls’, ‘Unconditional Love’ and ‘Softee’ to make some mini-musk type shrubs, or smaller more compact shrubs with musk coloring/type flowers.

Roses like ‘Etoile de Feu’, ‘William Allen Richardson’ and ‘Crepuscule’ really make me drool but most roses that look like that, you can’t grow them here no-spray or are much too tender. ‘Crepuscule’ is extremely healthy here, but is slightly winter tender in zone 7a Maryland. I’m wanting to get those kind of blowsy buff/yellow/cream type flowers and color, onto smaller, more healthy/hardy shrubs essentially.

Hoping I can get some ideas if any of the Pemberton musks could be good for this purpose>

Any of them more compact than the others? Or I guess they all want to climb and scramble like ‘Trier’?

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I’d like to grow Aurora some day.

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Hi Max, many of the Pemberton HM suffer from a lot of mildew out west. I believe it may be due to the older HTs probably used to create them reinforcing the multiflora proclivity to mildew. Probably Plaisanterie and Mutabilis might be your better choices here. I’ve not seen any mildew here on any of the Mutabilis crosses. Take a look at the latest entry to that group. Souv. de Louis Lens has recently been introduced. I’ve been in contact with Ann at Lens who verified it is a sister to Plaisanterie and the others. Mr. Lens thought he had enough for the group and chose not to introduce it. They grew it in their garden for over a decade and felt the “brown new foliage” and its flowering from spring through fall in Belgium made it not only suitable for introduction, but for naming to honor the “Father of the Hybrid Musk”. The few photos make it appear like a yellow Mutabilis.

It isn’t surprising the Hybrid Musks and Polys blur their lines as they do. Both are heavily multiflora based and could easily be classed either way in most cases.

I’d take a look at the healthier, hardier minis in your area and begin working the Comtesse du Cayla, Plaisanterie and others with the colors and feel you like into them. You might also want to play with mixing Comtesse du Cayla and Mutabilis together. I saw both grown into enormous specimen in Sacramento year before last and they were amazing. Once my Comtesse gets large enough to bring hips to maturity without the blamed squirrels getting them, that’s a cross I intend to make frequently! They just fit together and might create a breeder for you to cross with good minis in hopes of dwarfing them to more manageable sizes. Softee might be one to help remove the prickles, soften the colors and dwarf the plants, but Cal Poly and perhaps either 1-72-1 or Rise’n Shine might work well, too. Rise’n Shine would make more pastel colors. 1-72-1 should create more yellows.

Your Sven X Plaisanterie seedling is interesting, congratulations! I think I’d work with the better ones from that cross. Get a leg up on everyone and use Sven and Ole a lot. Might as well engineer in the hardiness and disease resistance from the ground up! Keep as much of the good things from multiflora as you can but move away from it with other hardy, healthy genes. Too much multiflora creates negative issues of its own.

Each breeder stands on the shoulders of the one before. Why go back to things you know have issues when you can start higher up the ladder and potentially avoid many of the problems? I am frequently asked if I think someone should go back to things like the Teas or Soliel d’Or for breeding. Why? Weren’t the reported lessons they encountered sufficient to prevent others from wanting to wade through them? We have such wonderful material to use now. Use it! Kim