OP L83 seedlings...what to expect?

Technique Flower Initiation
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21

Yes, OP stands for open pollination.

In the old days many referred to themselves as rose growers rather than rose hybridizers or rose breeders.

Regardless of how one gets the seedling, by controlled crossing or by open/chance pollination (usually self-pollination), it is necessary to be able recognize its good qualities to decide whether to use it in further breeding or to discard it.

Most rose breeders/hybridizers/growers allow some varieties to self in order to accentuate certain characteristics or to discover what the dominant traits of that variety are.

I’ll leave it up to others to decide whether it is valid to consider oneself a rose breeder if he or she grows seedlings from OP seeds.

Peter

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Ive had one good OP from Belle Epoque that seems superior to its parent. Im currently using it on a HC Anderson x Playboy seedling to bring out more “weird” color tones".

Meilland and Schwartz

(Plant Search & 'Sevillana ™' Rose )

seemed to employ some variation of this idea.

For example, the properties I got out of doing this are: better color retention, more petals, thicker peduncles, even better foliage, more compact growth and thicker petals. Belle Epoque is a very nice, healthy rose, but it is extremely wispy in nature

23

Many of the seedlings I’ve grown that I consider promising were originated from OP seeds. OP could be self pollination or pollen carried by the wind or insects. If one only works with OP seeds should one be called a rose hybridizer/breeder or a rose grower? I don’t know. For me, I make planned crosses as well as work with OP seeds so I would define myself as a hybridizer/breeder. A ‘rose grower’ to me would mean one who grows roses and who doesn’t necessarily raise them from seeds. Just one man’s opinion.

24

I don’t think anyone has mentioned ‘Prairie Celebration’ (‘Orangeade’ x L83). I’ve only seen it a couple of times in garden centres, so don’t have any experience growing it. This brings me to the subject of single roses that Dee brought up (‘Prairie Celebrtion’ has single, red flowers). I gather ‘Prairie Celebration’ was introduced because it has a good combination of cold hardiness and disease resistance. Unfortunately, except for a few exceptions, roses with single flowers have no appeal to the average gardener. I know, because I’ve worked in a garden centre selling roses. Customers don’t want them. My prediction is that ‘Prairie Celebration’ will never sell well. However, it may be quite useful in a breeding program. It has two parents with a good track record breeding good quality roses. For U.S. breeders, it’s likely this cultivar will be soon available in your country if it isn’t already now. It’s an introduction from Agriculture Canada, Morden, Manitoba.

To continue with the topic of single roses, one example where it doesn’t matter if the flowers are single or double is if the shrub’s foliage has colour. Namely, Rosa glauca hybrids. The shrubs are grown just as much for their foliage as for flower form or colour. I think I’ve said this before. Rosa glauca hybrids and other species hybrids with foliage colour, I predict will be much of the roses of the future. It’s likely they will be tough, carefree and of course providing excellent contrasting colour in the landscape. Just a bit of encouragement there, Rob (smile).

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Thank you for that encouragement Paul! I agree with your accessment of single petaled roses. I’m not a fan of singles unless there is something really special there…unique petal coloring for example. Another reason I would grow a single would be for the foliage coloring like R. glauca and hybrids. When thinking of breeding goals I keep coming back to the glauca foliage color but larger leaves and with huge, wonderfully colored blooms. A RHA member has generously offered to root a cutting of R. glauca for me which enable me to start at the ground floor and move forward. (Thank you Frank) I understand that this will take time but with luck something worthwhile will come from the effort. Now I just have to get my hands on ‘Carmenetta’ and ‘Louis Riel’.

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Didnt Enrique try kordesii with Living Easy? That seems like a better idea than using the old and disease prone Orangeade. Enrique, did you get any positive results? I think it would be a good start as an F1 for neat hybrids stemming from it, but maybe bland in the beginning.

27

Regarding “OP” seedlings, I have grown many of these as Peter has said for the purpose of exploring the potential in proposed new parent roses. You might get a better idea about both dominant and recessive traits.

I have a seedling of ‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’ that I like so much because of its vigor and disease resistance. Since it also set hips well, I wanted to use it as a seed parent. During its first year it set lots of OP hips so I plant several of them to see what it would produce. One of the OP seedlings was extremely floriferous, though a single. It too seemed very clean but was not as vigorous as the parent, so I decided to back cross it with the original seedling. Among the resulting seedlings from that cross, I ended up with a vigorous, clean, floriferous seedling (also single) that I have been using in breeding the last couple of years and am really liking many of the seedlings that I am seeing. So in some cases, OP seedlings can result in superior seedlings by concentrating desirable recessive traits.

Best wishes with your L83 seedlings!

Jim Sproul

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Thank You Jim. I hope something really nice turns up in the L83 seedlings. What color blossom is the seedling you ended up using for breeding purposes?

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Thank You Jim. I hope something really nice turns up in the L83 seedlings. What color blossom is the seedling you ended up using for breeding purposes?

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Jim, that is what Gene Boener did, if I recall. They would set selfs to see what was possible, and then use those results to make crosses.

Red Pinocchio was probably a result of such ways.

31

Paul,

Prairie Celebration might be great if one is aiming for orange roses, and I’d love that!

Now what about Prairie Joy? I see no descendant reports on HMF. Might you know if this is a good rose for instilling hardiness and disease resistance? And would this rose sustain OGR form in its progeny if it were crosses with roses of that form?

Is it a fertile mother, does it have fertile pollen or can it be crossed both ways? It looks very double, so I’m wondering if anyone knows anything about it.

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=4944&tab=1

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I have kept two open pollinated seedlings of Prairie Joy from my 1997 crop. One is single, the other I do not have the flower characteristics recorded but memory seems to suggest that it is double.

In 2004 I had the following cross:

“Folksinger X Prairie Joy. 2 hips, one pollinated on 7-13-04 and one on 7-15-04. 14 seeds. 1 germinated on 3/25/05; 1 on 4/03/05; 2 died”

See: http://home.neo.rr.com/kuska/winter_2004-2005%20hips.htm

Here is a picture of one of the open pollinated seedlings:

http://picasaweb.google.com/HAKuska/HenrySRoses/photo#5072232186929698850

Link: picasaweb.google.com/HAKuska/HenrySRoses/photo#5072232186929698850

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Your OP looks like it crossed with an american species or hybrid of one.

34

Henry,

I see that you have used Prairie Joy as pollen parent, and it sets o/p hip, but will it accept pollen from another?

35

Dee, sorry, I was not able to find any information about my use of Prairie Joy as a mother with foreign pollen. That does not mean that I did not try as I normally do not record unsuccessful pollinations.

36

Thank you Henry :slight_smile:

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Rob, that seedling is a light orange color and has been a great pollen parent.

Jim Sproul

38

Hi Dee,

Prairie Joy is a plant that is very deserving of a hybridizer’s attention. It can be used successfully as both a pollen or a seed parent, although its doubleness makes the process a bit more difficult–i.e. more blooms are required to obtain decent amounts of pollen, and it can be touchy to find the proper time to emasculate the very double bloom. The hips are also a bit slow to ripen and if you live in a northern environment the season length may be too short(I keep many of my parent plants in pots so that I can move them into a greenhouse when the weather turns cold). While not producing many seeds per hip, I have had several seedlings that have inherited Prairie Joy’s above average disease resistance and foliage that remains thick and dense right to the crown. If you are looking to produce roses with very double blooms, then this is a great rose to use. I have one seedling that is a cross of Prairie Joy by William Booth. I have never seen a spot of disease on it and its hardiness extends well above the snowline, although not to the tip. The downside of this particular plant is that the blooms are so very double that they refuse to open. I also have a beautiful very double white climber that is a cross between Paloma Blanca and Prairie Joy. This particular rose has been tested outside in a pot and shows excellent disease resistance, but I hesitate to plant it outside because I am so afraid it will not survive. In my Zone 3 Wisconsin environment, Prairie Joy survives well most winters, but I lost two during a harsh winter with little snow cover a few years ago. This past winter a friend of mine in Northern Minnesota lost her Prairie Joy under similar winter conditions. It may be a tad bit less hardy than some of the other Canadian roses.

Perhaps someone else on the forum can verify this, but I believe I was told a number of years ago that Prairie Joy was tested for disease resistance to blackspot and demonstrated the best broad resistance of the roses tested. I highly recommend its use.

Julie Overom

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Concerning Prairie Joy and blackspot.

Title: Components of Partial Resistance to Black Spot Disease (Diplocarpon rosae Wolf) in Garden Roses

Authors: A.G. Xue and C.G. Davidson

Authors affiliation: Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Morden Research Centre, Morden, Manitoba R6M I Y5, Canada

Published in: HORTSCIENCE volumn 33(l), pages 96-99, (1998).

Abstract. Eleven rose (Rosa spp.) cultivars and advanced lines from the Morden rose breeding program were tested in controlled conditions for rive components of partial resistance to two isolates of Diplocarpon rosae Wolf, the causal agent of black spot. The isolates were collected from diseased rose leaves in 1995 at Morden, Man., and in Ottawa, Ont. The components examined include incubation period (1P), leaf area with symptoms (LAS), number of lesions (NL), lesion length (LL), and sporulation capacity (SC). Differences in cultivar responses were found for all components. Of the 11 rose genotypes, no visible symptoms developed on line 91V8T201 even at 14 days after inoculation. This line was considered completely resistant to the two isolates tested. X6, T5, and 'Prairie Joy, had a high level of partial resistance. N3 and ‘Cuthbert Grant’

were intermediate. The remaining five cultivars or lines exhibited a low level of partial resistance. Linear correlations among LAS, IP, NL, and LL were high. Correlations between SC with IP, NL, or LL were insignificant. Although each of the five components can be used in selection for partial resistance, any one component may not represent the complete potential for a particular rose genotype. Results of this study suggest that LAS and SC are preferable as criteria for resistance to minimize the labor requirement when evaluating large

numbers of rose genotypes in the greenhouse.

The following is a quote from the Discussion part of the full paper:

"Genotypes with high levels of partial resistance, such as X6, T5, and ‘Prairie Joy’, may be more desirable as sources

of resistance for rose breeding programs dealing with D. rosae populations in Canada."

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Julie, thanks for the information about Prairie Joy. I’ve just pollinated a few flowers with Constance Spry pollen. I very much like both the flower form and nice, bushy growth habit of PJ. It seems to be very hardy in our climate as well. Good to know that hip ripening is slow, so I may need to take the plant to greenhouse before fall frosts.


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