On the topic of 'russets'

[pendulina]

What are your overall experiences? As a class that is rather famous for its low vigor and assorted ailments, which ones have surprised you performance-wise? Breeding wise?

As I understand from previous readings, some from this here forum, russets often come up from surprising, unexpected parentages, and hereditability is not always guaranteed when using them as parents.

From the current genetic pool at your disposal have you noticed any to pass on their russetness easy?

This all comes from me trying to pinpoint which one I would get if I were to get one.

Has anyone grown ‘Cinco de Mayo’ and ‘Hot Cocoa’ to compare them side by side? They are so similar in pictures, ‘Hot Cocoa’ just appearing slightly fuller. So much so I used to think they were sibling seedlings.

I would love to hear opinions on Nola Simpson’s creations as well. Burlington offers ‘Hot Chocolate’ (no relation to ‘Hot Cocoa’, and Jackson and Perkins has ‘Mysterious’ both of which look gorgeous. Has anyone grown either? She made more too, but I don’t think they are available outside Australia.

I should make the distinction that by “russets”, I’m more so referring to the burnished bronzey smokey overlayed red brick shades, rather than the mauvey, cafe au lait, gray and parchments browns.

Anything at all that you have to say about russets is of interest and welcome, really. Thanks!

[roseseek]

I imported Brown Velvet from Harkness in Britain back in the mid 1980s. In that arid, hot mid desert climate, it was healthy, remarkably vigorous and gorgeous. It rooted very well, had a bit of scent, grew very well own root and was quite fertile. Selfs produced very “OGR” shaped seedlings, many in the same tones as the original.

Hot Cocoa was similar to Brown Velvet in that climate. Black Tea and Hot Chocolate were OK plants but seemed to want to be budded. Edith Holden was similar in color and grew fairly well own root. I never attempted to use her to raise seedlings. Paul Jerabek’s Brown Study wasn’t AS brown as the previous, but grew well own root and was an acceptable plant. Jocelyn and Victoriana were also British imports, but from LeGrice. Both demanded being budded. I never bred with them. Sherry was an interesting, nearly brown which was a decent floribunda. It was from the same cross as Orangeade, only swapping the roles of the mates.

I avoided Cinco de Mayo because it rusted too badly and many places I observed it, the foliage often turned the weirdest yellow-bronze during summer.

I’d think Hot Cocoa might be a decent one to play with. It’s probably one of the healthiest of the bunch. I’m not sure how healthy any of them might be where you are

Heat brought out very orange tones in all of them, but let the temps begin to cool and they begin forming those purple haze shades over the orange which produce the “brown”. I have often described Brown Velvet as “chocolate velvet swirling around a glowing ember”.

[pendulina]

Thanks for the insights!

Curious what you mention on Hot Cocoa. I have found **what I think** is Hot Cocoa now and then in greenhouses here and I always end up murdering them. Probably my most frequent or otherwise numerous repurchase.

In most cases it has perished early on due to the heat as a small plant and hydric stress.

I did manage to keep one for circa a year, but it was a staller.
Never made “proper” canes, they were always very spindly and thin. Never thicker than a standard pencil. It also appeared to be very susceptible to whatever strains of blackspot I have.
LOATHED humidity.
Which contributed to young plants’ demise in a Looney Tunes-esque sequence of me watering them profusely so they would not perish from dehydration in the peak of summer, then getting severe blackspot from that moisture, defoliating and then dying from the sun scorching the unprotected thin canes.

The plant I kept seldom made blooms and they were always very tiny. The only large and gorgeous ones were the ones it came with from the greenhouse. I was hoping there would be more positive words to be said for Cinco de Mayo given all of this fuzz with HC.

But as I mentioned, I have some trouble telling them apart. Perhaps what I actually found was Cinco de Mayo…

One thing that I loooove about it and that makes me keep repurchasing is the receptacles. They are very “round”? Not sure if that’s the word actually, pictures say a thousand words, so here’s what I mean, exemplified by R. foetida:

R. foetida receptacles

Now, trying to find pictures of the recptacles on Hot cocoa and Cinco de Mayo yields this:

Hot Cocoa receptacles

Cinco de Mayo receptacles

And I have to say that the CdM ones look more like the plants I’ve had. Yet, the blooms have never actually had that “squiggly“ angular, ruffled quality to them when opening that Cinco de Mayo’s have, they looked more like Hot Cocoa’s…

Very confusing.

Thank you for mentioning Jocelyn as well. It’s available now from Rogue Valley, very tempting stock picture they use, by Paul, I believe. but it’s own root of course, and I’m still a klutz at budding.

I think my best bet would be Brown Velvet, it would seem.

I will certainly not desist from buying this HC/CdM whenever I see it, despite it all. It’s just too pretty (in the greenhouse).

As a final note, do you know of any other verieties or species with receptacles like R. foetida’s? They are probably my favorite shape out of them all.

[KDickinson]

Kim, I think I remember reading an old post where you talked about these types of roses getting their unique russet colors from a combination of deep orange petals + the “blueing” effect from the thick velvet which adds a sort of purple as they age. Am I butchering that paraphrase or is that about the gist of it?

If so, my real question is whether or not these russets pass on that velvet characteristic or not.

One thing I’ve noticed through browsing HMF is that in the case of those velvet-heavy dark reds there’s a big degree of randomness in those traits. They often come from pink and orange parents without especially thick petals. And being as those dark reds also come with some serious health issues I’m curious if these russets might be a more attractive way to pursue that thick velvet trait.

[roseseek]

Yes, Kyle, the “russet” is often an orange which “blues” with either age or temperature. Leonidas is one. In outdoor heat, it’s orange, but grown under controlled green house conditions, it’s “russet”. Some of them are “velvety” but not all. As long as the variety inherits the trait of “bluing”, the color will be altered to your eye. One of the Sam McGredy’s many decades ago (the most current was, I believe, Sam IV) wrote the best way to create a blue rose was to breed for dark reds which blued badly. It’s historically been considered a fault. Faults become features when they provide you with what you are looking for.

[vadr]

I got Cinco de Mayo this year and it’s one very dear to me. In the heat it is a rich orange. In cooler temps it will have more of a russet color and fade to a smokey lavender.

When I first discovered it, the flowers were Smokey russet with lavender/pink tones. An interesting rose

It grows in an awkward way, not very rounded. Sometimes horizontally at 90 degree angles, sometimes straight up, sometimes one longer than the others. The canes easily cross and are armed with thorns. But I’ve noted it is vigorous. It has a light, pleasant, apple fragrance as well

It didn’t set a single hip for me. I didn’t really use it in breeding this season but a few mother pairs accepted it’s pollen. It produces a lot

I haven’t had any health issues with it at all or the yellow-bronzing of the leaves Kim mentioned. It performed really well in the summer, but I did have it shaded with a shade cloth.

Hardly got any flowers late summer though because some bud-eating bugs tore through every one of them. It seemed to be their favorite..

[pendulina]

The way you describe the plant sounds like what I’ve grown, so perhaps it had been CdM instead of HC as I believed. It really is beastly thorny for a modern rose. Maybe HC is too? No idea.

The smokey purple overlay is my favorite part too.

[jAc123]

You may want to try Alfred Sisley. It is not russet itself but it will give seedlings in a wide range of colors, including russets. It’s also decently healthy and it sets hips very easily.

I have two OP seedlings I kept in the past two years. One is brick red in color, the other is more russet ageing to a greyish purple. Both are semidouble.

[paulbarden]

I’ve grown several of this class of “russets”, including Jocelyn (which I loved), Hot Cocoa, Brown Velvet, Black Tea, and probably one or two others I am forgetting.

As Kim states, Jocelyn is a beautiful thing, but is a fairly weak grower on its own roots. Not necessarily a bad thing, as it can easily be grown in a pot. I’ve never used it in breeding, solely because of its lack of vigor.

Hot Cocoa is very much worth exploring as a breeder. I used it quite a bit 15 years ago and got several decent plants from it. Try crossing it with dark purples! I got Diablo Hawk from it — an astonishing dark garnet red — and Beautiful Ann when crossing it with Ralph’s 1-72-1. If I were still making new work, I would use Hot Cocoa more. Alas, it was killed in the 2015 Polar Vortex we had here in the PNW. In fact, Jocelyn and Brown Velvet also perished in that freeze event.

Brown Velvet is a marvel. I got Dragon’s Blood and Dakota Redwing from it, but the latter is a deep red, not a russet. If I had pursued it more, I think Brown Velvet would have had a lot to offer in pursuit of odd colors. It was one of very few “browns” that had really good vigor too.

[pendulina]

Thanks, for the input Paul! Would you happen to have suggestions for purples? I’ve been eyeing stuff like Stephen’s Big Purple, Old Port, Basye’s purple X Joycie, Bleu Magenta, Perennial Blue, Senegal, which I’d say is borderline purple…

I know that you produced some goodies with Midnight Blue.

I’ve had it and while not unhealthy it has been ungainly, to the point that I’ve wondered if maybe there’s something wrong with my soil.

I suspected crown gall, and when it got to a complete stand still for several months as a medium plant (no blooms, no leaves, nothing), I dug it up. I did not notice hard evidence of CG on it in the end but I don’t know.

The color is truly bewitching when the weather is right for it. And it’s not entirely bad when the sun makes it be hot pink either.

Did you notice at times a weird, piss like odor on it? Once the clove, cinammoney goodness evaporates, there appears to be a backdrop of urea to it. I suspect it harkens back to foetida. Who knows. Not a complete deal breaker, but curious enough to bring it up. I thought I was crazy at first but I experienced it on several different occasions later on.

Weather seemed to have an impact on it, when humid and the blooms balled it was more noticeable.

[pendulina]

I meant to say Joycie X Basye’s Blueberry***, my bad @Kim, my brains are a bit scrambled at the moment.

[vadr]

@pendulina

perhaps it had been CdM

I’ve noticed on CdM the smallest leaflets have a tendency to point downwards toward the stem

And here are the thorns, maybe it will be of help

[paulbarden]

Midnight Blue was an excellent parent for me. I got many attractive seedlings from it in the late 2000s, but many of them were lost in the Big Freeze of 2015, so only a few survive. But you will have to cull weak seedlings (there will be quite a few, depending on the other parent) and blackspot can be a problem with offspring, as it is with most hybrids of the Floribunda kind. ‘Carolyn Supinger’ came from a cross of ‘Midnight Blue’ X ‘Pinstripe’, and the color is spectacular. As a bonus, it has a really nice fragrance too, which was not expected, coming out of ‘Pinstripe’.

If your plant is on its own roots, get it budded to something with vigor. It’s a shite plant on its own roots. And no, I never noticed any disagreeable scents on my plant.

Other potential parents might include ‘Munstead Wood’, and ‘The Prince’, the latter capable of delivering fantastic colors when mated with the right thing, but again, since it has very poor vigor, you need to mature it with something more aggressive.

[jAc123]

@paulbarden

Other potential parents might include ‘Munstead Wood’

That’s an interesting suggestion. Have you ever played with Munstead Wood, Paul? I have a couple seedlings out of it but I’ve been wondering how it and its seedlings behave in climates less forgiving than Europe.
I have to say that it is fairly easy to use as a pollen parent and that color, form and fragrance tend to be excellent in its seedlings; they also tend to root easily and vigorously, but they are often very thorny. C03-1 came from a cross between MW and The Wedgwood Rose, whose seedlings are often washed out in color.

However, I don’t think you could get anything outside of the pink to dark red spectrum out of it, and probably not russets. But I wouldn’t mind being surprised. I also think it would be a good parent to cross with stripes, if anyone is trying to get OGR-style striped seedlings.