This week I have tracked down five new instances of theft of my photos online. It is interesting that these days, it is mostly European nurseries who are the offenders. Today I was shocked to discover Apuldram Roses, a respected English nursery has swiped my photo of ‘Teasing Georgia’. See link. And folks wonder why I won’t publish rose photos anymore. Eff that!
So, be warned: posting decent pics on the web will undoubtedly be rewarded with repeated copyright infringements. Some people are flattered when their pictures are stolen and used by some company to sell their stuff. I’m not one of them. I come from a background where people get paid for the use of their work in such circumstances. Ugh.
Link: www.apuldramroses.co.uk/TEASING+GEORGIA+Ausbaker-rose.htm
Paul,
I’m amazed that a company like that would steal your work. That’s a shame. I was curious if you have confronted a nursery that has swiped one of your pictures and if so, what was the response from them.
Rob
This spring I decided to print color signs for all of the varieties of perennials and shrubs that I sell. Of course I didn’t have pictures of every single plant, so I used what I had and then I surpressed any lingering ethical qualms and hit Google Images to find the rest.
My rationalization was that I was not reposting the images on the web. (Maybe that’s more about not getting caught?) I only used the images for point-of-purchase signage. I thought of it as a service to the customer and I couldn’t see how I was hurting the picture-taker one bit. I wouldn’t have minded paying one or two dollars per picture if the opportunity was there, but there is simply not an infrastructure (like the iTunes store) set up for that. Bailey Nurseries and Walters Gardens provide free images to their wholesale customers for marketing purposes, so I made use of them whenever possible.
I’m not sure if this is a confession or an argument. I will keep trying to take as many pictures of my own as possible, because they are a more accurate representation of what the plants will do in this area.
My brother takes excellent pictures and posts them on his blog. When he searched for some of his pictures he found a picture of his house on the front page of a website for a California mortgage company. They had just linked to his picture, so he really could have messed with them by replacing the picture with another of the same name. I believe he’s also found his pictures of Mexico on the websites of resorts that he had never been to.
I know the feeling. A senior mucky-muck from Hope Depot copied a package and even worse, word for word the writing, and it got worse. What a bunch of no talent losers, and then there’s the Watt Mat fiction.
“I didn’t have pictures of every single plant, so I used what I had and then I surpressed any lingering ethical qualms and hit Google Images to find the rest.
My rationalization was that I was not reposting the images on the web. (Maybe that’s more about not getting caught?) I only used the images for point-of-purchase signage.”
Joe,
I understand there is somewhat of a difference between the instance I cited and your signage application, but I detect that at no point did you state that you attempted to contact the photographer/site owner to request permission to use the photos for your signage. I can’t help but wonder why that wasn’t part of the process for you?
Laziness and time pressure. I wanted to print the signs the same day.
Often the identical photo was duplicated and used by several different nurseries, so a sort of “everybody’s doing it” justification came into play.
BUT I am totally guilty of cropping off a few watermarks from photos I found on davesgarden.com.
I did ask for and receive permission for a photo of Honeyberries taken by Bob Bors, the breeder. I used that photo in our print catalog. None of the photos in the catalog were stolen.
I’m still not sure about this intellectual property rights thing. It seems pretty clear in the case of the websites that have stolen your pictures. It’s harder for me to admit that I did the wrong thing.
However, if I trust the feeling in my gut I know that what I did was wrong and I should not repeat that action in the future. Then another part of my mind reacts and says “Are you kidding? It’s just a picture on a sign. I wouldn’t mind if someone used my pictures.”
I really want to live a life of integrity, and even the smallest theft is a barrier to that life. I will try to do better.
Joe I understand you thought process. Until a while back I would have not thought twice about it. But I have realized how hard it is to take good pictures and also realized that some of these people make a living off of their pictures. Its like stealing food from their table. Plus on top of it some of these pictures are not just photo graphs but art.
Now is taking a photo of the internet for your desktop photo is that stealing?
Its a nice picture by the way Paul. Sorry about the theft. That is the problem with the internet once you post it your pictures and words are out there forever and any one can take them or use them. There is software to mitigate some of these problems but it is not full proof and a lot of countries do not even recognize copyright laws.
Those of us in universities deal with the “fair use” problem all the time. Maybe not all that well, but we try. If you are working with a book, it is generally considered OK to use a small fraction of it for your own teaching purposes. But to resell a collection of such snippets requires that you get copyright holder permission. A single image, usually a table of data or a drawing of something, or a graph is also fine.
However, an image captured with a camera might be considered a work of art, a whole thing in itself. That’s true of cartoons, whether Far side, or GI Joe (Malden). I would guess that rose photos are closer to works of art than they are to tables of numbers. People do stick them on power point slides to show in class. But you’re not supposed to use the same one over and over year after year without getting copyright permission. Spontaneity, and transitory use is OK, but permanency is frowned upon.
So perhaps copying up a bunch of photos to stick on posters in the store for a day’s sale meets the criterion for spontaneity, and if they go away real soon and aren’t re-used year after year it probably meets the rule.
Clearly publishing someone else’s photo in a book, without, at minimum, permission and credit, is wrong. Professional photographers of weddings and other events are pretty strict. Their lifelihood is at stake. Ask Olan Mills about directories, and photo usage and you’ll see. And a website is like a book in the sense of getting lots of viewers.
Unfortunately plagiarism is something we struggle with constantly in universities. Students really seem to not know the difference, especially if something is posted on a web site. Every year we spend time reviewing what is and is not allowed in our classes.
So far I don’t think that image detection has been applied to plagiarism of photos on web sites. It could be done relatively easily, though it’s harder than for words. Great dissertation project for someone in artificial intelligence.
“BUT I am totally guilty of cropping off a few watermarks from photos I found on davesgarden.com.”
I am flabbergasted to read that, quite honestly.
“I’m still not sure about this intellectual property rights thing. It seems pretty clear in the case of the websites that have stolen your pictures. It’s harder for me to admit that I did the wrong thing.”
Seriously?! What part of “if you didn’t create it, then its not yours to take” isn’t clear? (I’m still reeling over your admission of cropping off copyright watermarks.)
“Laziness and time pressure. I wanted to print the signs the same day.”
As opposed to “planning ahead and learning to create your own content”. Sheesh. I went to school for four years and studied under some of the most talented photographers in the country just for the pleasure of having people rip off my work just because they are “lazy”.
Hi Paul,
I really feel for you here.
So Paul being a photographer whats your take on using a photo from the internet for your desktop image. I from time to time run across an image on the internet that I really just want to look at for a while. I make it my desktop image for a few weeks. I never save it or use it for any other purpose and I never change it in anyway. After a few weeks time it gets deleted for a new image.
Larry I have had experiences with what you are talking about. I have had class mates that got kicked out of school for coping work. I think if I remember right the patent laws are bent a little for teaching purposes. But using someones work for monetary purposes is illegal in any form.
Andy Warhol got sued for using copyrighted images he had to actually settle out of court with several people.
I post a lot of pictures onto the web. Personally, I’d only get upset if someone used a personal photo from me, but I have most of those in secure places. The farthest I usually go is like my face pic on HMF. I’m not too specific about my plant photos, but I think I’d feel weird about it because I always remember the associated time the photo was take. So there will always be an intimate connection. However, I dont think my care factor would be that high. One thing I would stress, though, is that I hope this remains conversation and no one gets butt-hurt over it. I’d hate to see relations lost here.
Mr Barden, as I do not know you, this is how I address people till I am invited to call them by thier Christian name. I have looked at the link that you provided. I can not see anything in the picture which tells me it is yours. Has it been ‘doctored’. Can you redress the nursery and say you are seeking legal advice pertyaining to copyright of the picture, these are only my thoughts on the matter, Regards David.
I’m sure Paul has the orgininal picture so it’s quite easy for him to identify that it’s his property. The company should remove the photo from their site or pay Paul for for the privilege of using it…it is a beautiful picture. Just some thoughts…
Rob
It is a weird feeling to unexpectedly come across a photo that you took. The Home Run photo that Hortico uses is mine, pulled off of HMF I suspect. Really threw me for a loop when I first saw it. There was the sensation of this seems quite familiar. Pulled up my Home Run photos and sure enough its mine.
Paul, I don’t know what to say. You take beautiful photos of beautiful roses that are in many cases not mainstream roses. This is probably the web version of the classic quote “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”…
Liz
Liz,
Did you approach Hortico about misappropriating your photo??? HMF is very clear about this matter: they don’t tolerate image theft.
The “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery” metaphor doesn’t fly with me (obviously); prior to the Internet era, it would have been unthinkable for a company to assemble a catalog using content collected from other catalogs, books, etc., and that is, in effect, what Apuldram Roses did. Its shocking how quickly the old model of if you want content for your project, then pay for the rights to acquire/use it has gone right out the window. Once upon a time I could expect to be paid for providing an entity with imagery to be used for their marketing. Now, its almost a given that it won’t happen.
Oh, and I did get a response from Apuldram, and it was a beauty: watch my blog for a report on what I was told by a rep from the company; they removed the photo, but not without offering an insulting, snotty, half-hearted apology.
No I did not approach Hortico, but when I discovered the Summerwind mix-up I was tempted to add that to the email as well.
Paul, you are certainly correct about the change in how content is viewed post-internet. I’ll be sure to check out your blog about the response.
If you would like to know what kind of a reply I got from Apuldram Roses, click on the link:
Link: paulbarden.blogspot.com/2011/08/dear-mr-google-you-and-i-need-to-have.html
Using a photo image without permission isn’t all that rare.
I’ve always tried very hard to get permission before using a photo image in a program that I’m putting together but sometimes, the original photographer doesn’t reply to my request.
I always put the photographer’s name on each photo that I use.
I have posted hundreds of photos on the WWW of ARS National conventions arrangements and to date I have NEVER gotten any request to use any of my photos.
I get a report from the site each week letting me know how many times the site has been contacted and how many photos were downloaded.
I suppose I could limit anyone from using my photos without my specific permission, but I post them to encourage people to either attend a National convention or to enter the Arrangement section of the rose show.
Imagine my surprise to see one of my photos on a national website without my permission or even a photo attribution!
Link: http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/earthkind/roses/cultivars/else_poulsen.html
