about breeding vegetables thought it was interesting
Very interesting Adam. I wonder if there are rose varieties or species that can especially function as bridges? Mr. Ralph Moore seemed to think that minis in general provided better bridges, but I wonder if there are species that can do the same or better?
Jim Sproul
Interesting video. I have some wild R. Gymnocarpa on my property. I donāt see any offspring in HMF, but I know that a few on the RHA have played with it a little. Iām not sure if it is pollen fertile or not, but Iāll give it a try. Maybe for some shade tolerance. Maybe for disease resistance. I read itās a diploid so using it on a couple of diploids I have would be a way to something interesting. I germinated a couple of seedlings from collected hips so Iām hoping to do forward and reverse crosses. Possibly a bridge to ???, but maybe a bridge to nowhere.
I have wondered this myself Jim. After a lot of studying I am convinced that Ralph is right with regard to minis especially certain minis like anytime in this case I think it helps that it is a triploid. Orangeade seems to be another plant that seems to be able to make very wide crosses. R. rugosa also seems to be able to make very wide crosses with other species but mixing these with modern roses seems to be the problem but their are examples of this out there so it is not impossiable. Another plant that seems to work is R. multiflora. Finally Buck believed in R. eglanteria derivatives and he got this from I belief from Kordes.
I suspect that R. Gymnocarpa genetically is similar in the way R. rugosa works. So if you can cross it to R. rugosa I think it would work with R. Gymnocarpa. Also through study I think R. soulieana would work very similarly to the way R. multiflora would work. But in several ways I think R. soulieana may be better to use.
But all of this is a gut feeling. I do not think their is a true one fit all bridge species in roses but I do think we have several very good bridges that can be used to bring in any gene we want as long as we are willing to try them. It seems from comments I have read many shy away from using Orangeade or R. multiflora but if nothing else works I do not see the harm of trying at least we go in knowing we will have to throw away more than usual.
One more gut feeling I have is if anyone can get a fertile offspring from the Simplicifoliae side of the family crossed to with something from the Cinnamomeae side of the family I think this plant would make a bridge like we have never seen in rose breeding. I am thinking this because I think on the scale of evolution that these two are the widest apart of all the rose groups.
At the risk of splitting hairs, I think the distance between Hulthemia (Simplicifoliae) and Cinnamomeae is about the same as for Hulthemia and the other subgroups.
Your point about using them to make a bridge is an interesting one. Because of the distance between them, though, do you think a stepwise strategy might be more productive than a single leap? What traits would you be wanting to capture from each side of the equation?
āa fertile offspring from the Simplicifoliae side of the family crossed to with something from the Cinnamomeaeā
Seedlings of this type already exist if you consider more complicated hybrids.
Hereās one involving Hulthemia and the cinnamomae R. californica.
Seedlings of this type already exist if you consider more complicated hybrids.
Thatās what I meant by stepwise. However, it leaves us using the single Hulthemia cultivar from which Tigris was bred. Iāve considered walking backwards from the Persians to pick up more and perhaps different traits from other Hulthemia cultivars, the catch being getting seeds of Hulthemia.
I wonder if Cocker and Harkness ever tried crossing Hulthemia with the early foetidas like Soleil dāOr and itās immediate offspring. In theory that should go better than did their crosses with Trier.
Regarding R. gymnocarpa: I made a few crosses using its pollen a few years back, putting it on some of my miniature derivative breeders. The offspring almost universally lost most or all disease resistance. None had any repeat, and many had a serious loss of Winter hardiness. The problem may have been my choice of seed parents. I made a few crosses again last year but used very different seed parents, including the diploid āMagic Wandā, R. soulieana and a second generation 0-47-19 hybrid of mine. Maybe this year it ought to go onto āOrangeadeā. Its true that āOrangeadeā often provides a useful link where all others fail.
Jeff,
I have a species roses I collected out East years ago that I believe to be a strain of R. woodsii that is quite fertile as a pollen parent. This species is very graceful, intensely fragrant, Winter hardy to Zone 2 or 3 and thrives in total shade or full sun. I can get you a piece of this if you want to experiment with it.
Paul
Don, your premise sounds intriguing but my guess is we might not get anything better than what Jim has already achieved through selective hybridizing.
Then there are the disease problem associated with the early foetida hybrids.
It seems to me the hard part is already done.
Such a project would require significant time and patience with no guarantees for superior results.
Donāt worry about splitting my hairs. As far a my idea of a possible cross I was just thinking that you get the two farthest points in the family together and then anything crossed with the offspring should have some compatibility. I really o not think it would be possible to cross say R. rugosa to hulthemosa directly. I think they are way too different. I just thought it was an interesting concept.
In earlier articles written in the newsletter there was a lot of talk of septet when talking of species and there chromosomes. I do not understand it completely but it does seem to make a little sense. This is where this idea popped in my head.
As far as actually doing some cross like above. I for one could not see my self doing it. I think we have the best quality of hulthemosa already in usable forms thanks to Cocker, Harkness, Moore, and Jim. I personally would rather work to bring in R. woodsii, R. roxburghii, R. laevigata, R. sweginzowii or R. glauca instead. I think these and others has a lot of potential. But that is a gut feeling.
The last two years I have used R. woodsii pollen on everything I have crossing my fingers that something will take. I love R. woodsii. Last year I used a wide arrange of pollen on R. glauca. I must have made crossed over a hundred flowers to get about twenty hips. I did manage to get R. arkansas(I think that is what this plant is), R. woodsii, R. foetida biocolor, Heidi, Complicata and some that the label feel off so I do not know what they are; to set on it. Hopefully I get a lot of these to sprout I already got some of the R. glauca x R. foetida biocolor to start to grow. If I had the room I would try to work with the others.
Robert,
It seems to me the hard part is already done.
It depends on what you are after. For everything but hardiness and disease resistance, sure. Reaching back carefully to wild species populations might be a reasonable strategy for gaining these.
The narrow gene pool of modern roses derives not only from the fact that so few species were used but because so few cultivars of those species were used. For almost every species there is only a single founder hybrid. The exceptions are chinensis (arguably four) and multiflora (two).
Such a project would require significant time and patience with no guarantees for superior results.
It would certainly be a career for someone. However, it would go more quickly than the first efforts because it would be easier to bridge the species in now. I think the hardest part would be gathering desirable wild types.
I already got some of the R. glauca x R. foetida biocolor to start to grow
Godzilla meets King Kong!
Yeah, after looking through catalogs (online and paper), it looks like there is a more limited selection of species available for ordering for this catalog year. I hope the trend doesnāt continue.
I think as long as the economics continue to be bad for nurseries that this trend will continue. Hopefully the smaller nurseries will make it out of the recession. Other wise all we will have is cookie cutter type Hybrid Teas and Floribundas to choose from.
Jadae, that trend concerns everything you buy and use. Not that many years ago, it was fairly easy, at least in major metropolitan areas. to find āpharmaciesā where there were more specialized OTC products so if the chain store selections didnāt do what you wanted, you had other choices. Those are gone now. Everyone carries the same three brands of any given product and the only āselectionā is most often just a change in model number so comparison shopping is much more difficult and āguaranteed low priceā guarantees donāt have to be honored. Itās the same in brands of housewares, food, you name it. Boutique products, like roses, are even harder hit. Unless youāre already on stable footing, which it seems none are, and itās something you feel fairly sure youāll turn many units with, you arenāt going to be too excited to carry it, unless youāre fortunate enough to have the resources to sell it because you LIKE it.
So true, Kim
Here is an interesting concept
The Hulthemia hybrids are well on their way, but it would be really cool to get Hulthemia persica seeds. Maybe weāll just have to plan a travel group to Afghanistanā¦
Jim Sproul
I belong to a hibiscus list. There is a member in Iran. I will email him to see if this is something he might have access to.
Jim, I emailed the hibiscus gentleman last night and this was in my mail this morning. Kim
"Kim, you may not know that Gardening is not professional in Iran and finding seed from plants is very hard in most of cases only for some of our old plants .about our Rose Species we have some very known Roses most of them are mini like Persian Rose (a very fragrant double rose) and many of swild single roses (Wild Dog Roses) .
i can find Seed of Dog Roses easy but about Rosa Persica i donāt know .they are in North and Center of Iran .in fact we donāt have a good gardening refrence in Iran which i can have access to it easy .i will ask my friends for it and if i find i will email you results .i will keep its picture and look at wild if i found it in spring or summer (when roses are in bloom) i will try to get some seed pod for you .
i always like to collect seed of our wild plants to send to abroad because this is only way to protect them .our people donāt know value of our Nature and value of wild plants .
Good Luck"