Read through the RHA newsletter yesterday and completely enjoyed it.
The information about Out of Yesteryear was very interesting. I added OofY just because I love Raplh Moore roses and it looks like I really need to consider using it in hybridizing.
I am kind of curious what might happen when I use its pollen on some of the different species roses I have like r. nitida, r. arvensis, r. blanda and r. davurica. It really brings a lot of interesting possibilities to mind.
I’m glad you enjoyed the article David and I put together. I think ‘Out of Yesteryear’ is a goldmine of opportunity in breeding, especially if you branch out into species and “unusual” breeding lines. If you introduce it into a diploid species breeding plan, you will likely get a mix of mostly diploids and triploids, some of which will have fertility. It is worth exploring.
So many of its offspring are superb plants, with vigor, beautiful foliage and a variety of bloom stles. Its major limiting factor is that it will not breed strong colors, only softer hues. A medium orange is about as deep a color as I have seen among its progeny.
Kudos to Peter Harris for another splendid issue! Thanks to all for contributing which makes it all the more fun to read and enjoy. Please consider contributing to the spring issue when we make the plea in a month or so for articles, comments, or questions.
David and Paul, this really was quite a fine article with a great deal of information presented very clearly. Paul, now that we’ve had a proper introduction to ‘Out of Yesteryear’ and kin, I was wondering if Ralph Moore’s warning that OOY would not give many repeat blooming offspring has proven not to be such a hard and fast rule. Are there a lot of non-remontant seedlings that have been produced in proportion to the repeating hybrids? Now that repeating hybrids from ‘Out of Yesteryear’ crosses are available, would there be any advantage to skipping ahead a step?
I’m glad you liked our article. We found it fascinating to research and write.
While it has been discussed that ‘Out of Yesteryear’ gives a precentage of non-remontant offspring, those are by no means the majority. I would say that in most crosses with fully remontant roses, ‘Out of Yesteryear’ gives a group of seedlings of which about 60-70% are remontant in the first year. If the non-blooming seedlings are kept and grown on for a second year, I would estimate that perhaps 50% of those remainders will develop some degree of remontancy. So don’t let the remontancy thing scare you off of using it; it really does produce some superior plants with exceptional vigor, magnificent foliage and beautiful blooms that often have good fragrance.
As for the next generation from ‘Out of Yesteryear’: there may be some advantages to using seedlings of ‘Out of Yesteryear’, yes. But you will have to experiment to see which offspring are 1) fertile and 2) pass on good qualities. Ralph Moore believes that ‘Tangerine Jewel’ is worth working with but I have yet to make any attempts to breed it. My bet is on ‘Precious Dream’ which is highly fertile as both seed and pollen parent, a quaility it undoubtedly inherited from ‘Orangeade’. I have a huge crop of seeds from a dozen different crosses using ‘Precious Dream’ that will be sown this Spring. I made a large number of crosses because preliminary tests using its pollen in 2002 suggested that it will be a good parent. This year’s results will tell me for sure.
In my own collection I have a seedling from 2002 that is ‘Sheri Anne’ X ‘Out of Yesteryear’ that was saved solely because of its rampant growth and beautiful healthy foliage. It produces a moderate amount of blooms that look a lot like a slightly larger, redder ‘Sheri Anne’ on a lax-caned climber type plant. It sets seed easily and I will be sowing a group of open pollinated seeds this Spring to evaluate it as a parent. It may be a link to better color in this group of hybrids. We shall see. I also have a seedling from 2002 that is ‘June Laver’ X ‘Out of Yesteryear’, with 3" double blooms the color of orange juice-stained silk and an excellent peachy fragrance. I will be testing this hybrid in breeding next Spring as well, hoping to get better vigor in the next generation. I think using ‘June Laver’ was a mistake in this instance because it tends to produce offspring with poor vigor and short, stumpy growth habit.
I think that ‘Muriel’ should still be explored in breeding, especially if you can get some fertile offspring in deeper colors to proceed with. My seedling 33-03-03 (‘Twilight Skies’ X ‘Muriel’, discussed in the article) is a deep reddish-mauve color that is fertile, and I have hopes that it will be a link to better coloring in the Bracteata hybrids. Have you considered working with ‘Muriel’?
Paul, thank you for your very thoughtful response! I am glad to hear that ‘Out of Yesteryear’ can produce a good percentage of remontant seedlings, given its other attributes. I do find the soft colors and formal doubles coming out of the hybrid bracteatas exceptionally beautiful, but it makes sense to develop the class in richer colors as well.
Here in the frozen north it will be an additional (but undoubtedly worthwhile) challenge to increase the winter hardiness of these sorts. Since ‘Muriel’ is such a tender climber we northerners may have to ask about for pollen upon choosing a suitable seed parent! ‘Out of Yesteryear’ and other shrubs should survive to bloom up here, at least with some protection; as long as its offspring are reasonably remontant, the risk of producing tender once-bloomers should be on the small side. There’s always the problem of many very hardy roses lacking full remontancy themselves (with the exception of the rugosas, which would probably make great mates for hybrid bracteatas), but hopefully there will be some good offspring - at least hardy once-bloomers that will serve as intermediate parents useful in further breeding.
I’ll second the idea that hybrid rugosa and hybrid bracteata lines would seem to be a good match. I think you’ll be able to get decent cold-hardiness relatively quickly that way.
I have some first generation bracteata hybrids that haven’t shown much if any cold damage here; they are all from pollen of another hybrid(Rosa rugosa X palustris). I live in Maryland in zone 6/7. Rosa bracteata usually freezes to the ground (or worse) here.
This is really interesting.
I will be most likely trying it with some different R. spinosissima hybrids and some Bruck roses, along with some of the different species roses if I get the chance. If my R. spinosissima blooms next spring, perhaps I will try it with it. I would definetly hope to see increased cold tolerance in offspring.
I would also like to try it with Golden Glow. It would be interesting to see what kind of results one would end up with by crossing 2 fertile triploids.
May not get much of a chance to enjoy the rose if I keep tearing up the blooms for pollen. It really is an enjoyable rose.
I’ve had several plants of R. bracteata for five years. One was bought as R. laevigata so I wonder if some of the observed tenderness is due to getting the wrong plant, and it dieing before its true identity could be known.
Mine grow vigorously in acidic clay in zone 6b in full sun without winter protection. I have a max/min thermometer near one and for the past two nights temps were 4f and 5F. This follows three weeks of warm above freezing temps, which followed the initial winter freeze that got to 3F in that garden. Bracteatas down there (the bottom of our hill where it’s 3-5 degrees colder than up at our house) are still alive with many leaves that remain green; the same thing happened last year, with similar temperatures.
That said, I couldn’t get Muriel to grow. Well, it grew one cane in three years and died last summer.
Mr Moore’s first three brateata hybrids (two years ago) have done well and continued to bloom although without spray had some fungal problems that didn’t set back the bloom.