Newbie questions on breeding & disease resistance

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I’m new to breeding roses. My goal is fragrant, thornless, and hardy to my zone 5a, Chicagoland. I don’t have rust nor mildew due to our 40" rain and 38" snow per year. Blackspot is minor, due to strong wind and alkalinity of clay soil and water. I wonder if disease is due to a particular rose NOT suitable for one’s climate/soil, rather than the rose’s genetic makeup. For example, Crimson Glory mildewed as a band from California, continued in a pot with acidic potting soil, but once I transferred into my clay soil, pH of 7.7 - zero mildew.

Gruss an Teplitz is a China/Bengale HT. China ancestry is in some mini-roses which are prone to blackspot. I suspect that roses with China ancestry prefer dry climate. There’s one person who grows a clean & no spray Gruss an Teplitz: a lady in Sweden with alkaline clay, similar climate to my zone 5a. Gruss an Teplitz is the parent of Dr. Huey, known to do well in alkaline clay.

The opposite of blackspot is mildew and rust for dry climate. Let’s consider Sonia Rykiel, heavy on Kordes heritage (Kordes Aloha HT and Iceberg). Kordes is known for blackspot-resistant. A person in California killed Sonia Rykiel for its rust. Sonia Rykiel is a water-hog in my garden. It broke out in rust in a dry pot on a hot cement patio. Once I transfered into my alkaline wet clay, she’s disease-free.

There’s Basyes Blueberry - heavy on wild species heritage: Rosa Carolina Vari Alba and Rosa Virginia Alba

'Basye's Blueberry' rose lineage This rose is clean no matter what’s the environment: dry dinky pot in 100 degrees, or my wet swamp with mildewed perennials, or all week-long rain.

My questions: 1) what if I mix a BS-fest with a Mildew-fest, will it produce a neutral one which is less extreme? I don’t know much about rust, since we don’t have it here, except for Sonia Rykiel, in a dry pot above 90 degrees.

  1. Basyes Bluerry has a wonderful wild rose scent, but its petals blow fast. What other roses with long-lasting blooms, less thorn, that I can cross with BB?

Thank you for any info.

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On your question I can only answer it partly due to limits in my knowledge. Perhaps someone can add more.

I am assuming your talking about powdery mildew. I am sure soil chemistry can have an effect on diseases and the way plant acts to them. But I also can say it can not be the only factor your seeing. Most of the southwest has heavy basic soils. Many areas have a ph that goes beyond where your is at. I would actually expect your soil to be acidic or neutral by your rainfall but I am sure your had it tested. But anyways powdery mildew is a major disease here. To factors that contribute to it are warm dry conditions and poor air circulation. I am willing to say soil has something to do with it but the other to factors probably have a greater effect.

Another factor is potting soil lacks many micro nutrients that in the scheme of things could be having some effect but I do not know what micro nutrients are important to rose so I can not really say if it does or not. I just know some plants refuse to grow on potting soil unless it is supplemented and that would be the worst case scenario. But many plants will grow in potting soil but are happier in the ground due to this and other factors like water. One example is Sugar Beets needing a nutrient called Molybdenum. Unless sugar beets have this nutrient it will totally refuse to grow. Potting soil might contain some of it. I do not know but I do know if it does it does not contain enough to make sugar beets happy. At least that is what I remember from one of my class. That was along time ago so my memory is a little fuzzy.

Basyes Blueberry is a wonderful plant. Basyes was way before his time. This plant is clean or relatively clean in most areas from what I get. It does suffer in certain areas from reports I have seen.

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Strawberry Hill,

I have a hunch the acidity/alkalinity had little to do with the mildew or rust in those particular instances. A healthy rose with good root development and room to expand (won’t find that in a band) and the approximately correct amount of water with little or nothing else to stress it, will seldom rust or mildew with good air movement, esp, if not allowed to stand all night with dew or other sources of moisture on its’ leaves, but being otherwise subjected to hot dry conditions esp around its’ roots all day. Sonia Ry. may be a waterhog, and many roses are, and they are subject to both mildew and rust if allowed to become drought stressed. This is not to say that there might not be some roses that do prefer acid or alkaline soils, but that often shows up as an inability to take up the correct nutrients and results in leaves that show a deficiency and may be more subject to disease. Basyes Blueberry probably is more tolerant to a wider variety of soils/climates/care levels, and definately makes a good candidate for crosses trying to bring up the disease tolerance level.

BS-fest does not usually cancel out Mildew or rust fest in most cases, but you might get lucky depending on what is crossed and what its’ genetics are. Most roses do carry some genetics for certain disease tolerance in some areas of disease and if you are lucky some offspring will carry both the disease tolerance of one parent plus the particular disease tolerance of the other. But when you are factoring in so many different genetic variables, try to isolate them one at a time, and if you get lucky and can isolate two or more, and they are fertile, start using those to build yourself a wild rose fragrant, thornless, disease free, drought tolerant with a nice yellow flower that doesn’t blow fast.(I threw in the yellow part for David M.) You will have a winner. This is definitely something that keeps this little hobby very interesting and challenging.

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You can force roses to break out in diseases simply by keeping them too dry, too. I can force R. Arkansana to rust by drying it out. Both new and old foliage rusted terribly when I wasn’t giving it enough water, but the new foliage grew in clean once I began watering it more heavily.

Cal Poly remains completely clean for me, unless I dry it out. Keeping it too dry forces it to rust quite badly. Keeping it watered properly enables it to resist the rust. Mildew resistant roses can be forced to mildew, even when conditions don’t support mildew (hot, dry) by keeping them too dry. Bands and smaller pots, particularly on concrete patios or against hot house walls or fences, can be cooked into drying out and forcing the plants to develop diseases.

There is also the interplay between long lived (evergreen) and short lived (deciduous) foliage. If the genes tell the plant to quickly develop the leaves, use them up quickly, then shed them, perhaps they may remain healthy for the duration of their life. What happens when you cross a deciduous type with an evergreen type? Logically, it has appeared to me on many occasions you can easily raise a plant whose genes “tell” the plant to quickly develop, mature and use-up the leaves, then refuse to shed them, particularly in a climate which doesn’t have the natural triggers to cause the leaves to fall. Those can be cold, dry, heavy rains to knock the old foliage off, winds, etc. Azaleas in my climate often look pretty terrible because nothing knocks the old, tired foliage off. I can hose them out with a strong stream of hose water to mimic heavy rains (which I seldom get) and the plants look fairly decent. Same with large rose bushes and climbers. I must rinse them out to remove the dirt, spider webs, debris and old leaves and petals or they become laden with old, dead, dried debris and decline. In climates where they experience real rains, that isn’t usually their issue.

Hybrid Rugosas are often pretty terrible here because the plants use up the foliage and nothing triggers them to drop the old leaves, except black spot and rust. In shorter, harsher climates, hard rains, cold and even snow can remove those old leaves before they develop the fungal issues. That doesn’t happen where there is no real “cold”, never any snow and the rains either aren’t sufficiently strong, or simply don’t occur. Then, the raiser must take the upper hand and physically remove the foliage, or endure the ratty looking, diseased plant. In the appropriate climate, the same rose is completely healthy and a joy to grow.

Genetics do play a part, as will proper culture (feeding, watering, soil type and composition, etc.), and climatic suitability. It isn’t as simple as it seems. I can raise a seedling here which develops much disease, but in your climate, may be perfectly healthy (and vice versa). Perhaps instead of destroying those which aren’t suitable for my conditions, sending them to a completely different climate may result in the appropriate selection for different conditions? It is entirely possible the same cross may make roses entirely suitable for several different climates. Much has to be discovered through experimentation.

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I like your way of thinking Strawberry, as they say “outside the box”. Some other members might have tried your idea and did not work but, this might be the time it does and as Jackie says this is what makes this an interesting hobby Thanks Jackie about Yellows. The other thing Kim mentioned about what doesn’t work in his area might work fine in yours, experimentation.

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Strawberry,

Could be you don’t have rust because there’s no source yet. Get Love & Peace or raise some seedlings from Playboy to get the source for rust.

Ebb Tide may be a good cross with BB, about 50% of the seedlings of ET look good.

Any seedlings with rust get tossed no matter what, but the book is still open on mildew and other black stuff with at least some indication that some young plants can overcome and never be bothered again.

Neil

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Thank you, Neil, for info. on Playboy and Love & Peace as “Rust-fest”. … I’ll experiment when I get cuttings. I bought Paul Neyron on purpose to experiment, after trying 3 different soil mediums, I finally got him clean with 45% composted pine bark (has tannin, a fungicide), lime (a fungicide), gypsum (prevent balling), perlite (keeps surface dry), vermiculite, peatmoss, pH is above neutral. Kim is right about many factors come to play: soil, climate, stress factors, and genetics.

Folks report both Ebb Tide and “Out of the Blue” blow fast, but “Out of the Blue” has a better scent. Both would be good for Basyes Blueberry, since its light pink color could use some deepening. It would be neat to try yellow & thornless miniflora, “Lo & Behold”, or yellow “First Impression” on BB to make a deeper color, as Jackie suggested.

Does rootstock play a factor in diseases? Gruss an Teplitz, the parent of Dr. Huey rootstock, has this genetic makeup “The four roses that figure equally in its genetic makeup include a Bourbon (Sir Joseph Paxton), a Tea (Papa Gontier), a China (Gloire de Rosomanes) & a rose that, depending on the source, is either a China, a Noisette, or a Tea-Noisette (Fellenberg).” quoted from Windeaux from NC. In that discussion of Gruss an Teplitz, six folks from acidic soil reported its being BS-fest. In contrast, 2 folks from California bought it as own-root reported it being clean, plus Marianne from Sweden. All 3 have alkaline clay soil.

Hybrid teas are often grafted on Dr. Huey, and notorious for BS if not sprayed. I wonder if Dr. Huey and its affinity for alkaline soil plays a factor in BS-fest in acidic soil, considering that Gruss an Teplitz gives folks in acidic soil hell, but clean for alkaline soil. I’m temped to buy Gruss to experiment in my soil pH of 7.7, but it blows fast - won’t make good cut flowers. I would love some cutting to experiment.

I agree with Kim that Rugosa is a disease-fest in alkaline soil. Rugosa is known as “beach rose” for its doing well in sandy soil, but it does poorly in heavy alkaline clay. My Austin Eglantyne has Rugosa heritage, is a BS-fest here, and as own-root is wimpy compared to the one grafted on Dr. Huey at the nearby rose park.

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If you want to see plenty of disease and the most rank growth habits in your seedlings, use ‘Paul Neyron’ in your breeding!

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Teresa, yes, it is possible to affect the health, vigor and longevity of a rose through soil type, but comparing how a particular rose resists black spot in Chicago in one type of soil to how the same rose resists it in the Carolinas in a different type doesn’t take into account there are different strains of the fungi across the country. Five, different strains of black spot have been isolated in this country alone. If you have types 1 and 2 and types 3 and 4 exist in the Carolinas, perhaps the rose in question resists yours and not the others? You have to isolate which types are being observed to make sure the effects you are observing are actually due to pH or different strains of the fungi.

Also, add to the “rust fest” list, Simplicity (rusts to DEATH here) and Queen Elizabeth and all of the closely related “Roxburghii” hybrids sent out by Tantau. Independence, Geranium Red, Floradora herself, are all rust buckets here. Paul is completely correct about Paul Neyron. I didn’t have rust issues on Nutkana, but Schoener’s Nutkana (hybrid with Paul Neyron) was terrible as was every seedling I raised using it with anything. Neyron itself was one of the absolute worst offenders here. Most Bourbons and Hybrid Perpetuals have been terrible for rust and black spot in my too long, too warm, too damp (though actually rather arid, ironically) climate.

Rust was a huge issue here with many of Ralph Moore’s Bracteatas. Any of them containing Playboy had to be kept sprayed against rust. The only un-rusty ones for me have been Star Dust, Out of Yesteryear and Out of the Night. All the others rusted continually in my climate. Rugosa hybrids are frequently terrible here. ANY Austin rose bred from Conrad Ferdinand Meyer is guaranteed to be addicted to rust here. Meyer itself was a sheer horror. It demanded to be sprayed to prevent rust and then turned brilliant yellow, shedding every leaf if ANYTHING other than water touched its foliage. The only two first generation Rugosa hybrids I have ever grown here without rust issues have been Magseed and Linda Campbell.

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I wonder if disease is due to a particular rose NOT suitable for one’s climate/soil, rather than the rose’s genetic makeup.

My guess is that BOTH are important determinants, as are a whole host of other known and yet to be known factors.

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Mention has been made of the infectious agents themselves here. They too are an integral part of the “disease equation”, they are capable of evolving over time, their virulence levels can change over time, their genetics can change over time sometimes to their benefit sometimes to their detriment, it is all a very dynamic interplay between host, environment and infectious agent(s).

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Neil also said the same about Paul Neyron as Mr. Barden. Thanks, Kim, I didn’t know that Paul Neyron has rust issue. I saw balling and blackspots on him prior to moving to a better soil in partial shade. His fabulous scent is worth the hassle. Love & Peace, Simplicity, and Queen Elizabeth give the best display here - they get rain, plus plenty of alkaline tap water at the rose park. I have never seen rust in them, we get winter-kill down to the crown each year in zone 5a - they all become tiny, thus less demand on water. I grew Queen Elizabeth before, that was my most healthy one, mine was 1.5’ x 1’.

Only 1/2 hour away was my old house, acid soil, the hydrangeas are really blue there. I had over a dozen HTs grafted on Dr. Huey - they were wimpy and BS fest despite spraying. Then I moved to this new house next to a limestone quarry, the hydrangeas are really pink here - EarthCo. tested my soil to be pH 7.7, deficient in potassium. The next door neighbor started a HTs garden - tons of blooms, really healthy. Now I know why theirs grafed on Dr. Huey do so well in in alkaline soil.

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I like the name Strawberryhill, but as Kim has pointed out it is really Teresa. I hope you are keeping records for hindsight/evaluation of your work.

The thing I do not understand is this “winter chill” of the crown. England and lots of the USA freeze. In England they cover with straw/mulch, they survive. Here in Australia where I live we might get frosts down to -7c for couple of inbetween days but days on end in winter. So the “winter chill” last for sometime I assume. Cutting the bush back to the crown, like they do in some parts of England, would that work.

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Not from my experience, David. Chill requirement is a genetic necessity of the plant’s to experience a certain number of hours of cold (below 40 F) before it will flower. I HAD a number of plants which had greater chill requirements than my climate could afford. They have been and are being weeded out to other “deserving homes”. Why maintain a plant which never flowers, grows too exuberantly and often has disease issues due to being unsuitable for this place?

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Hi David: I tried logging on again as Teresa, but this site won’t take. “Strawberryhill” is a better version than “strawberry hat” which my kid suggested. At first I thought she wanted me to log on as “strawberryhead”.

My rephrase of Kim’s for my zone 5a would be “Why maintain a plant which never flowers, wimpy, with disease issues due to being unsuitable for this place?” The minis are shorter than a cup here, so I shipped them to a friend in California, in exchange for his mildewed climber. All the mildewed stuff like Crimson Glory does really well here, zero BS with our constant spring/fall rain.

Paul Neyron is hardy to zone 4b, I don’t have to winter-protect when it goes down to -20 Fahrenheit. With the strong wind here, it often went down to -30 Fahrenheit windchill factor. Dr. Huey has its place in alkaline soil, but he can’t handle too much water … break out in BS. Own-root waterhogs have their place too. There’s this spot in my garden with poor drainage, a drought-tolerant Gold Flame spirea bush didn’t like that, so I put in a Knock-out grafted on Dr. Huey. It didn’t like that wet spot either. Finally I put in an own-root waterhog, 2007 Romantica Sweet Promise - it does really well, tons of blooms.

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I second Kim on Queen Elizabeth, It’s the worst I ever had, rust, BS, mildew all at the same time. It just was replaced by whimsy, good near background.

Sundowner is going next, just as soon as a replacement is found.

Neil

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Campanula from England killed Queen Elizabeth for being tall and naughty. My Queen Elizabeth was grafted on Dr. Huey, so it was really wimpy in my previous acidic garden. At the alkaline clay rose park, Queen Elizabeth on Dr. Huey is always healthy and stunning. The true test of a rose is: how does it do on its own root?

I don’t think Dr. Huey likes wet acidic soil. Water-hogs grafted on Dr. Huey can become disease-fest. Austin Golden Celebration is a water-hog, my OWN-ROOT is 100% clean, even in its 2nd year with our week-long fall rain. Others with Golden Cel. grafted on Dr. Huey report its being a BS fest. I bought Heirloom grafted on Dr. Huey. It’s 100% clean in a dry pot, then I put it in my wet-swamp, it broke out in BS. Other own-roots in that wet-swamp do great: Blue Mist, Basyes Blueberry, and Lynnie. Since I never water that swamp with my well water at pH over 8, that swamp is NOT alkaline with layers of leaves and rain water (pH of rain is 5.6).

So when people report diseases on a rose, my question is, “Is it grafted on Dr. Huey or own-root?” My dozen hybrid teas grafted on Dr. Huey were all BS-fest in my previous acidic wet clay garden, even with spraying … I was so discouraged that I abandoned roses for 15 years. Now I realize that Dr. Huey prefers dry and alkaline. Gruss an Teplitz, his parent, is a BS-fest in acid wet soil.

The genetics of a rose show best when it’s own-root. People report Jude the Obscure being stingy on own-root, like giving 3 blooms per year. But Jude grafted on Dr. Huey blooms his head off at the alkaline rose park. My own-root Austin Eglantyne is a nightmare, only 2 blooms per year and a BS-fest with Rugosa parentage. Same with own-root Charles Darwin, 3 blooms per year. Jude has only 1 descendant, Eglantyne and Charles Darwin have none.

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I checked on Queen Elizabeth parentage: Crimson Glory (mildew), Souer’ Theresa (pernetiana, BS-fest), Baby Chateau (polyantha, water-hog), and wild species Rosa Roxburghi. Kim Rupert warned me about Pernetiana’s blowing-fast & other problems in Sutter’s Gold. With such an mixed parentage, QE is quite good here. 2011 was record snow, plus 49" summer rain. Queen Elizabeth was the best looking at the rose park. This year we have the mildest winter in over a decade, nothing get killed to the crown, QE is at her worst. She’s good when it’s winter-kill to the crown.

Zone 5a folks bury Dr. Huey’s bud union 6 inches below ground level. I’m sure that QE at the rose park grew her own roots, plus Dr. Huey, for maximum water intake. I killed 3 Knockouts: Dr. Huey’s root completely gone in that wet swamp, only own roots. The second has both roots. The 3rd in a dry spot near a tree, did not grow its own root. The doctor doesn’t need much water. Water-hogs like Queen Elizabeth on Dr. Huey is not a good idea.

Double-Delight on Dr. Huey was a wimp and BS-fest in my last acidic garden. I ordered it as own-root, will report its performance in alkaline clay soil. For my 14 own-roots Austins, all are clean on alkaline clay, except for Eglantyne with Rugosa heritage, and Radio Times which I dumped acid fertilizer as an experiment. Then I dumped horse manure (high in potassium), it sprout clean leaves. There’s an inverse relationship between potassium (needed to fight diseases), and sodium (salt in fertlizer). There’s also an inverse relationship between sodium and potassium in human hypertension. Salt in fertilizer drives down potassium, which is needed to fight diseases. I also dumped acid fertilizer on Mary Magdalene early summer, she broke out in mildew, despite TONS of water given. She’s clean when I scraped off the fertilizer, and put horse manure on.

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I seen the sport of QE, Queen Elizabeth Cl, and was impressed with the thick canes and large size. I thought it was the same plant, no way, and now I do not want it, to many here already with no descendents.

Double Delight was terrible stunted in good soil and full sun but in clay and much less sun is a grand rose bush, but it aborts hips.

I had high hopes for Strick It Rich but now it came down the black cane problem Jim Sproul was writing about and the same problem in a planting of about forty in a rose park, only on SIR.

Neil

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:frowning: