Hi Don,
One of these two looks as if it was dead the time I had treated it, however the younger one is definitely alive and now has one green cotyledon (the other one is broken up). It is a very slow developer unlike PEJAMXOP which thrived as an embryo sown in dirt!
It has a chance of surviving in my books, I am keeping it in the above baggie set up.
Again thanks, it is possible you may have saved this one for me!
Hi Don,
It is too bad I cannot photograph it yet to help out here, but I need advice on this embryo/seedling which remains in the baggy.
It is definitely growing.
It is now something like 11 days since I first sowed it as an embryo in seed raising mix, and I think 48 hours since removing it from that media and cleaning it up adding 500ppm H2O2 to it, and placing it in a zip-lock baggy with H2O2-impregnated paper and subjected it to 24/7 lights (I eventually taped it close to a ceiling fluro ligt in one of the bedrooms LOL!!!). The neighbours must think I am mad!!
It has developed one green cotyledon, the other cotyledon fractured and what remains of it seems to be useless (not green). There is a true leaf just starting to emerge as well overnight!! The hypocotyl-rootlet junction is is not really apparent yet, it is just tapering to a point and maybe, just maybe, a thin rootlet is trying to emerge out of that tapered end of the hypocotyl…the hypocotyl/rootlet piece is no more that 1/4 inch long.
What should I do at this pont in time?
How long should it stay in there?
Should I change the paper?
Any other advice?
I would just keep it under the lights, George. I wouldn’t change the paper unless it starts getting fuzzy.
One frustrating aspect of germinating embryos this way is that you often get to see the gory details of how they would have failed if left to their own devices. Failed roots is a frequent cause, amazing how many embryos it affects.
I really wonder is there any identifiable cause for roots failing to develop in some rose embryos (other than trauma to the radicle of course)…any ideas on that one??
(I surely hope this is not one of those ones!!!)
George, why couldn’t it just be another “birth defect” like those which germinate with fused cotyledons that never open; or fused leaflets instead of properly formed foliage; or the ones which do develop roots, but not a very vigorous root system? Or, those which are terminally chlorotic no matter what you do for them? Just the luck of the draw. Genetically, that one shouldn’t have made it. Kim
Hi Kim,
Agreed that is a totally reasonable way of looking at it. Probably the most likely explanation of failure to root is just plain old nature being imperfect. That’s fine by me.
To be sure, those embryos whose radicles have been micro-traumatised can be expected to have trouble rooting, I would never doubt that.
But having said that, whenever I see this happen in embryos, I often worry whether exposing embryos to intense light ever inhibits rooting in some of them…just me thinking in weird ways I guess…I know it would be very difficult to determine if there is any thruth to this speculation of mine.
Damage to the root apical meristem is always a possible cause of root failure when you do an embryo extraction. I think, though, that many of the root growth failures are so similar that they share a common genetic cause. I have a name for it, actually. I call it ‘blind root syndrome’. I’ll try to remember to post some photos.
I think it could well have to do with a set of genes that are sort of special within each plant genome, those for the suspensor. This structure acts as the umbilical cord for plant embryos, at least in the very early stages. The suspensor attaches the tip of the primordial root to the base of the testa that surrounds the embryo.
Hi Don,
it is such a peculiar phenomenon, I think it definitely deserves a special name such as what you have offered, and even some scientific research into the whole aberration!
It would be nice to get to a solution to this problem if one actually exists. Every time I have seen it, the first think I reach for is dark seed raising media to bury the blind stem into…definitely all gut reaction and no science behind that move, of course!!
think = thing
Experience has shown me that seeds that require special effort to germinate often (always?) lead to plants with problems: poor health, chronic Mildew, deformities of all sorts, etc. Case in point: a seed lot gathered from one of the Moore Hulthemia hybrids that had never germinated under normal circumstances. Embryos were extracted and a number of plants raised. It was clear immediately that these were all very troubled plants: perpetual mildew (even with fungicides) and tragically bad growth habits. All died without ever flowering. I think that’s just as well.
I no longer do anything other than standard stratification to my seeds, and if they won’t germinate that way, then I don’t need to know what secrets they may have held: for the most part I don’t think I am missing anything. Natural selection has a goal in mind and I am willing to go along with that. 
JMO, of course. Good luck with your pursuits, George.
Thank you for reminding us all of that, Paul. Absolutely, things happen for reasons. It’s definitely interesting trying the extractions and all the special techiques, chemicals, pushing zones, etc., but as you stated, Nature has done it better than we can ever hope to, for far longer. Work with her and she’ll reward you with some amazing beauties. Try to short cut her and she’ll get the upper hand every time. Happy Thanksgiving! Kim
"I no longer do anything other than standard stratification to my seeds, and if they won’t germinate that way, then I don’t need to know what secrets they may have held: for the most part I don’t think I am missing anything. Natural selection has a goal in mind and I am willing to go along with that. "
My heart had the same conclusions … often this might be right. Only, sometimes there are gaps, gaps to fill with all the crippled that do very well know where to go next.
Grx!
Arno
Thank you all for the additional comments. I agree, Paul Kim and Arno!!
As mentioned, this previously stratified and sowed hybrid persica seed showed a horrible germination rate after being subjected to the usual many weeks of cold stratification and then sowing it, and waiting weeks on end.
My guess is that the hybrid persica seed parents which produced this seed were poor seed parents.
The results of the achene extractions where nearly every remaining seed was rotted also seed seem to support this supposition.
As a reward, I am also lucky enough to have obtained one very vigorous embryo-seedling which thrives in dirt. In the case of this very hard to obtain (and to germinate) seed, that is a grand payment!!
I continue to stratify and sow 99.9999% of my rose seed these days, following your good advice.
OK… for those of you who are interested in life support sagas, this “embryo thing” that is trying to become a rose seedling (PEJAMbigeye X OP) is still green and alive, and there are tiny new leaves trying to spike their way up between the cotyledons. So it is obviously alive. The only reason I care about it is that it is likely bringing me persica genetics plus modern rose genetics in one, so it has importance in relation to what I am seeking in my short term rose breeding goals.
Obviously there comes a time when it has to meet soil… as it is nearly 2 weeks “old”, I went for the plunge and re-planted it in seed raising mix, surely it needs some trace nutrients at this point.
Anyways it is growing sloooooowly… I will continue to give it overnight fluro light exposure, plus in the day I will expose it to natural light outdoors. It will get no other special treatments.
It is very fortuitous that the weather has switched from near furnace type heat to our type of winter “cold” (LOL)… this weather switch could not have come at a better time for this little green thing.
It wont be long before our spring heat waves likely hit us again, so I am crossing fingers this little one will have decided to grow some roots by then and live on.
Having dealt with these more tricky embryos in the past, and putting all those mixed experiences together in my mind, my prediciton is that this one is going to live and become a rose after a slow initial growth phase. I hope it brings forth some “goods”!!!
Must get pixx happening again!!!
Stay tuned, if you are interested in this kinda mumbo-jumbo!!!
Update:
Since re-introducing the Eyes For You XOP seedling-embryo into seedling mix a couple of days ago, and with the very much cooler ambient temperatures, it is now growing on and since yesterday has tolerated a few hours of direct morning/midday sunlight.
It has responded by developing one very bronze/purple colored true leaf, and the second true leaf is unfolding, as well as a tiny stem. This is all of a sudden happening very very fast, it is amazing to watch it all unfold after its miserable start in the furnace conditions it received last weekend, early in its life.
It is actually starting to have the vigorous look about it!!
I have no doubt it must now be growing roots below the media.
Hi George,
Great to hear that the seedling not only appears viable, but is vigorous too! Please post a photo when it blooms.
Done!
Jim shared one of his Hulthemia seedlings with the attendees of a memorial birthday gathering for Ralph Moore last year (or, was it this?) I posted photos of it taken yesterday to Photobucket. It is set to “Public” so there shouldn’t be any problems viewing it. The rose flowers all the time and sets many hips. There are some foliage issues with black spot, but it is just so happy and pretty! Kim
Link: s16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/roseseek/M210-2%20Sproul%20Hybrid%20Hulthemia/
Sounds like it has great potential assets there for breeding, to be sure!
With Jim’s permission, there are self set seed of it down there now, so you might see something interesting from it at “home”. Kim