I have just received some very interesting cuttings of a rose called ‘Heart of Gold’ It is reputed to be wichurana x moyesii. Are all moyesii hexaploid? If so does it form 3n gametes? If it does this would mean that ‘Heart of Gold’ should be a tetraploid right?
Given as hexaploid but fargesii form is tetraploid.
Patricia Routley pictures show nice hips…
An occurrence of a diplo x hexa resulting in a fertile tetraploid?
Exciting!
Pierre, Patricia is the one who sent me cuttings from her plant. It’s got me thinking what other species hex x dip combos might result in good options to use with modern tets. Trying to find nutkana now too. Some references say that the dilpoid used to create ‘Heart of Gold’ was a wichurana x setigera hybrid. Either way I thought it might marry well with modern tets. I’m excited about the possibilities of this one too.
Simon, what do you call ‘modern tets’ please
Most modern roses appear to be tetraploids, David. Tetraploids or triploids. Almost all of your hybrid tea, floribunda, and miniatures are tetraploids. A lot of the modern Kordes roses seem to be heading towards being triploid as they appear to be going back to ‘Immensee’ and ‘The Fairy’ a lot (both diploids). Most polyantha and Tea are diploids but there are triploid varieties in these groups too. This means that if one wanted to incorporate diploid species with modern tetraploids the end result was often triploid and triploid fertility is often much reduced (though not always). So, I’m trying to collect tetraploid species to go with modern tetraploids to produce more tetraploids and hopefully avoid some of the fertility issues (which is why I tried to double laevigata). I like trying to make fertile triploids too, however, as they can be put with diploids, triploids, and tetraploids and a lot have more fertility than we might think (so they are probably more versatile than a lot of tetraploid and diploid breeding roses), and fertile crosses out of tet. species x modern tet. aren’t guranateed either… sometimes the roses do whatever they want too. I would never have expected Mr Moore’s beautiful ‘Muriel’ to be a tetraploid out of her parents either!
Can’t help but wonder what kind of tie-die effect that might give if crossed with some good hulthemias…
Neat plant.
I was speaking with Jim about this kind of thing a while back and he said that often roses with white/light ‘eyes’ tended to disguise the hulthemia blotch. This makes sense if pigment is regionally controlled as Jim suspects and the white eye is an absence of pigment. It might be a handy rose to use to create that ‘Eyepaint’ hand-painted kind of look without having to actually use roses descended from these roses 
Being tetraploid was one of the reasons I selected Fedtschenkoana in the first place. The fact it is just flat out gorgeous didn’t hurt, either.
I’ve been told that Rosa moyesii ‘Geranium’ is nearly sterile … or at least has not been used successfully in breeding. It’s a shame that the color hasn’t yet been passed on to other roses.
On a happier note, the same pigment (cyanidin sophoroside) has turned up in a wild specimen of the Japanese Rosa rugosa. The selection is called ‘Salmon Pink’. The color is not so deep as ‘Geranium’, but at least there’s a better chance of getting that rare pigment into other garden roses.
I haven’t found a U.S. source for R. rugosa ‘Salmon Pink’, but I’m still looking.
Karl
The sterility of ‘Geranium’ is something I have never understood as therre are photos of large trusses of hips all over HMF. I think maybe used as a seed parent someone might be able to coax something out of it and then with embryo extraction seedlings could be raised. For some reason I’ve always had trouble germinating straight moyesii seeds. I’ve tried twice now and got nothing either time.
Van Fleet (1917) wrote, “Rosa Fargesii, mentioned on page 36 of the 1916 Rose Annual, turns out, on no less authority than Dr. E. H. Wilson, to be a deeply colored variety of the very handsome R. Moyesii, but is well worth preservation for its horticultural value.”
And this:
The Rose in America (1923) Page(s) 52, Plate VI.
“A hybrid between Rosa Moyesii, the deep red Chinese native form, and a friendly seed parent, the Japanese Wichuraiana, has given us “W. M. 5,” the only name it bears at this writing.”
Taken together, these statements suggest that R. fargesii (tetraploid) was the pollen parent, rather than R. moyesii (hexaploid).
Karl
[attachment 998 554-1A.jpg]
This seedling has R. moyesii as pollen parent and Joycie as seed parent. It has not yet flowered but it is obviously a moyesii hybrid. Theoretically it could/should be hexaploid (from tetraploid x octoploid) but I highly doubt it. My guess is tetraploid.
The reason I doubt that it is hexaploid is that the reciprocal cross has always failed. In fact, every pollen I have put on moyesii except its own has failed and I have put many different pollens on it. I interpret this to mean that moyesii acts like other roses and produces pollen having a variety of ploidy levels some of which are cross-compatible with modern roses.
For the same reason it is possible that moyesii is the parent of “W. M. 5” (Geranium?).
I regard fargesii not as a distinct species but, rather, as part of a spectrum of regional variants that also includes R moyesii, R. bella, R. davidii, R. setipoda, R. multibracteata, R. saturata and R. sweginzowii (at least).
Theoretically it could/should be hexaploid (from tetraploid x octoploid) but I highly doubt it. My guess is tetraploid.
Don where did the Octoploid come from, R. moyesii is usually a hexaploid. I reckon your seedling may be a pentaploid with a 5+1 configuration.
(spectrum of regional variants that also includes R moyesii, R. bella, R. davidii, R. setipoda, R. multibracteata, R. saturata and R. sweginzowii ) I would agree with this, I have three of these and leaf and plant structure are very similar.
The one I am waiting to flower is Master Hugh a R. macrophylla hybrid, this year it put out a lot of growth so I might be lucky with a bloom this spring. It has great looking foliage as well.
where did Octoploid come from?
IIRC the USDA/GRIN database but you rightly question the data. It depends on what reference you use. I suggest that it also depends on which cultivar you measure - in a population of moyesii I think you will find a some of each. The same situation exists with R. acicularis.
My guess is we may be able to add R. praleucens (decaploid) to the moyesii group if the seeds I have germinate next season.
So Don where did you get the R praelucens seed from??? I didnt think the chinese were releasing any yet. I am doing some work with high ploidy roses, if you have any spare seed please.
For the same reason it is possible that moyesii is the parent of “W. M. 5” (Geranium?).
‘W.M.5’ is ‘Heart of Gold’… though I did find this reference that refers to it as W.S.5 instead:
Elsewhere in these somewhat random sketches I have told the story of the ‘Mary Wallace’ rose. In the same series of hybridizations by Dr. Van Fleet other roses followed and disappointments also followed. For example, there came one rose, under the label W.S.5, that seemed to be a promising plant. When it first bloomed and received the name of ‘Heart of Gold’, it looked as if we were getting a real hybrid between Rosa wichuraiana, the pugnacious and useful Japanese rose, and the rather wonderful big scarlet Rosa moyesi. It did bloom just that way, giving single, open crimson blooms, shading to white at the center, with conspicuous yellow stamens. The plant was vigorous, and it kept blooming for about three weeks, but it could not pass the standard which some thousands of American rose lovers had built up, and it has dropped out. It was a disappointment.
(McFarland, 1949).
and a 1919 reference labelling it as W.S.5 as well:
Dr. W. Van Fleet: Owing to its poor seeding abilities when grown as grafted plants on heavy soil, less progress has been made than was hoped for with R. Moyesii, notable among wild roses for the deep red coloring and waxy texture of its widely expanded blooms. Now that our plants have been transferred to the sandy loam of Bell Experiment Plot, and have become established on their own roots, seeds are more freely borne, and a fair number of hybrids are under way. Pollen was plentifully produced, even when the fruits failed to mature, and a few early crosses, the result of applying it to the stigmas of other species and varieties, have sufficiently developed to show prospective value.
The most striking is W. S. No. 5, with an unnamed Wichuraiana-Setigera hybrid as seed parent. This, at four years from germination, forms a fine plant with arching shoots six to eight feet high, covered in June with blackish crimson single blooms nearly three inches across. Even the filaments of the stamens are colored, as in R. Moyesii, but the petals have a white base, making a striking contrast with the deep coloring of the other portions of the flower. The plant appears exceptionally healthy and hardy, and will be propagated for dissemination and trial.
(American Rose Annual, 1919, pg 32)
So if fargesii is a tet. chances are ‘HoG’ is a triploid… it would be really interesting to find out for sure. Speaking of ‘HoG’… all the cuttings I put in struck. If anyone in Australia would like one PM me. As I read on HMF, however, there is a questio over the identity of this rose due to a lack of colour in the stamens and my lants came from Patricia Routley in WA.
Warren, somebody here worked a trade with somebody in China for the praleucens. We don’t even know yet whether the seed is viable but our purpose is to get the germplasm into the hands of our members so when the time comes there will be an article in the newsletter.
I have about 5 spare plants of ‘Heart of Gold’ for anyone in Australia who might like to play with it. I’m repotting and splitting them up tonight so can send in the morning for the cost of postage.