I am an enthusiast beginner in rose breeding and have read many times this forum which has given me lot of valuable information. I would like to ask your opinion about what is the matter with some of my small plants.
I have a handful of very good this years op seedlings from the same hip.The mother plant is one mini climber.
None of them have had any fungal problems, not even when stayed outside during the spring time and many resistant adult plants got downy mildew. Tree of the four seedlings have bloomed and all of them are fragrand, one VERY fragrant with really nice orange- rosy pink flowers. That very fragrant seems to have Crepuscule as pollen parent.
Three of the seedlings have some strange leaves and I would like to know if it is virus.
I put one photo about the leaves. They had some “color disorder” already when few weeks old and now again.
I was going to post the exact same question. Some sort of nutrient deficiency or a virus?
Several roses in my row of seedlings show these symptoms, and what is disturbing is that there are some aphids out there so I’m worried about it spreading to my other seedlings.
One month ago I bought one climber and now it has exactly
same mottling as yours. And I have many pollinated hips on it. This is really funny. I have started to think that the only way to have clean plants and seedlings is to bild a “hot house” and give some heat treatment to them before grafting.
This looks like it might be Manganese deficiency, which is especially apparent when tiny necrotic spots appear interveinally. (between the veins-I think I just made up that word) Iron, magnesium, and nitrogen deficiencies look a bit similar, but usually there is no spotting, but rather a general fading of green to yellow between veins, with the veins fading with extreme deficiency. Limestone is a good source of manganese, and usually a fert with micronutrients will list manganese as well as zinc which is also associated with manganese def. I use palm tree ferts once or twice annually because it almost always has manganese as well as other trace nutrients. Here in So Cal the soil is very deficient in those same nutrients, even without excessive leaching.
Ha! I just went through and dug out a bunch of second-year roses, including some fairly lovely ones…hoping someone wouldn’t come along and say it was a nutrient deficiency.
Now that I’ve started looking, I’m seeing more and more symptoms.
I have a Prairie Sunrise in a pot that is showing more severe symptoms including some irregular mottling that really looks like a virus. The problem is I’ve got some fat pollinated hips on that plant.
So Pia and I probably need some advice on the likelihood of a virus passing from the plant into the seed. Is it worth keeping the plant for the summer to get the seed, or will all the seeds be infected, too?
In light of all the research posted here and on Garden Web concerning the virus issue and the symptoms seedlings are showing, it seems amazing to me that there are as many asymptomatic plants as there are. I have long felt this issue is virtually hopeless, that the methods of transfer were much easier and unstoppable than we’d originally thought. It seems we shouldn’t be using pollen or seed from infected varieties. That rules out a ton of material! Buck’s roses came out infected. Earthsong he personally handed a gentleman at Iowa State was infected. Most of his roses came through ROYAT whose history of infection is legendary. Roses propagated from his stock show symptoms. The AARS roses were primarily introduced by Armstrong who was also notorious for infection. MUCH of the material introduced before the late 80s is, at the very least, HIGHLY suspect. It seems even much more current offerings which have grown in established gardens should also be suspect.
European imports have been touted as “clean” by virtue of their being propagated on seedling under stocks, though we now know seedlings should also be held suspect. Perhaps, the cross-over from whatever the origin of infection to roses occurred in several places and might not be the fault of the US rose industry?
Perhaps, also, breeding research might need to be taken in the direction of creating varieties with sufficient immune systems to withstand viral infection, in addition to fungal attacks?
Reading the hysteria on GW and other forums about finding a particular rose is infected and the resulting damnation of various producers over it has long irritated the heck out of me. As if the producer could DO anything about it when 99.99% of the varieties available have NO source of VI material. Even making the effort and taking on the cost of having it treated is no guaranty it will be clean, only that it has been “treated” and certified as “VI”. Charging the appropriate cost for those plant is then damned as “over priced” when the “same” variety is available at Home Depot or KMart for $3!
This REALLY spotlights the popular source’s long running claim that “OUR roses are own root and own root roses are virus free!” Yet, people still flock to throw money at them for uncertified roses because they are on sale for CHEAP prices. If I read that correctly, only “expensive” plants are expected to be uninfected? People who demonize producers who deliver symptomatic plants, proclaiming their desire to rid their gardens of infection, still flock to suck up stock which could well be infected because at $8 a piece, “they’re worth the risk”. Amazing!
According to the research I’ve read in Henry’s posts, even beginning with VI material is no guaranty you’re not spreading infection. So, we just roll the dice and take our chances? Kim
FWIW, the article that Henry posted, Title: “Evidence of root graft transmission of two rose mosaic viruses, Prunus necrotic ringspot virus and Apple mosaic virus in rose rootstocks”, it appears that transmission was not accomplished via pollen or insects if you take together the following two statements in the abstract.
“All virus-negative plants had a possibility of becoming infected by pollen or insect transmission.”
and
“All virus-negative plants in control pots tested negative all 5 years.”
Joe, I would keep the plants that you have crosses on despite them being infected with virus. There is a good chance that the seedlings will not be infected.
I do believe that root graft transmission is possible as indicated in the article. Deep cultivating by the growers may promote this problem.
I will add manganese. Hopefully it solves a problem.
Mr Rupert,
As far as I know, a heat treatment does not clean the plant of the virus but it cleans the buds so you can get clean plants by grafting them to the clean root stock. So, there is a way if there is a will.
It is just difficult to know if the parent plants are infected if there are not any symptoms.
Joe,
I read your earlier post and have to say your seedlings are marvellous. Fantastic blooms.
Thanks, Jim, for filtering out the relevant info from the article…my mind goes a little numb when reading technical articles. I’ll keep the plant and hope for the best.
It’s a little depressing to contemplate that I might have some sort of widespread virus infection.
Thanks, Pia! I hope they continue to perform well so I can share them.
Hi Pia, thanks, it’s Kim, I know the treatment is to provide “clean” buds for propagation, thanks. Other links Henry has provided state the only way to positively know if it was effective is to further test them with the more sensitive tests as the lower sensitivity three tests may not pick up low viral loads. A further statement in the information is, “A negative result does not mean there is no virus”. OK, it only means the material has been “Indexed”. For what that’s worth. Kim
The PNW is an excellent area to detect virus. Its probably why the insanely expensive 3 to 5 gallon roses from David Austin in (Texas?) at the local nurseries were expressing virus so vividly, as well as early. I was surprised, although I should not have been, given the past data this forum has seen. I guess its easier to expect virus from a body bag rose from Tyler, TX or “lord knows where in Cali” than a $40 rose from David Austin.
Why? You don’t think Austin actually generates those $40 roses do you? As I stated, only expensive roses are expected to be virus free. As for “Lord knows where in Cali”, that’s Wasco (not Waco), the rectum of the universe! Hotter than Hades, colder than Antarctica, but roses LOVE it!
I’m not specifically sure since this is the first year they have been here. Previously, they were to be found at own-root places, from Jackson and Perkins (limited selection) at nureries, or you could mail-order for them. This year, they could be found as huge plants in a massive assortment. They were the newest of the new. (btw, Charles Darwin is atrociously ugly in person lol). Roses, unlike most nursery plants, lack an ID on their tags. For example, Mt. Angel in small print on the pot tag implies Mt. Angel, OR, which is kind of north of Paul. So my only assumption is that Austin is using Texas. Where ever theyre coming from, its not a temperate or cold area. I know that for sure.
I do know when Arena was still in business, Austin in Texas contacted him for availability of other than Austin roses as Syl wouldn’t grow them. Once he sent the field count, Austin wanted ALL of them. EVERY plant in the field. Syl told them they couldn’t have all of them as that would leave nothing for mail order. At least until that time, Austin used contract growers, which is a pretty sure fire way to have junk stock. Most often, it’s shopped for price, period. That’s what happened to Armstrong and ROYAT. Kim
The real solution to the virus issue would be to clean up and propagate varieties in tissue culture. This has become absolutely standard for new perennial and annual varieties from many major companies (Terra Nova, Proven Winners, et cetera) and should be for roses.
