Miniature, Angel rose

Hi all,

Would anyone have any information regarding the ploidy or breeding of the miniature roses whose seeds are sold as

They are diploid. I used them for a chromosome doubling experiment that will be published soon in Euphytica. They have been difficult to breed with other classes of roses, but not impossible. I have had good success crossing them onto fertile, tetraploid modern mini seed parents. Shrubs and hybrid teas though in crosses with them tend to give few if any seeds and out of those seldom do any germinate.

Perhaps since they are closely allied to modern minis and polyanthas they cross readily with them. My suspicion, like others have also said, is that they are just repeat flowering variants of R. multiflora. They definately are derrived from Synstylae section species due to their sort of fused, elongated styles. Crosses with one of Dr. Buck’s rootstocks that is primarily R. multiflora yielded quite fertile offspring which is a clue that they are closely allied to R. multiflora for there not to be hybrid breakdown and obvious pairing abnormalities at meiosis.

The ones I raised from Thompson and Morgan and other places tend to be a bit mildew susceptible and lack zone 4 hardiness, but selection and more breeding with them should help. Some segregate for thornless stems (still thorny under the petiole, just like R. multiflora hybrids that are thornless). If you give them a try, keep in mind though that if your goal is exhibition minis or modern roses you will need to do some generations of breeding to get away from the relatively small flower size and also rather narrow petals.



Thanks David,

I was looking for some diploid mini

Regarding “Rosa multiflora nana” aka (I presume) ‘The Gift’:

I am wondering if this rose, which was found by Joyce Demits, wasn’t improperly given its Latin name. I read an account that it was perhaps believed by Demits to have been a seedling of the hybrid musk ‘Francis E. Lester’; does anyone know more about that?

The source of the information I found is no longer online, but still exists (for now) in a cached version on Google:

Here is the cached version[/url].

Jinks, I apologize as that’s probably not too helpful to you with your original question!

Hi Stefan,

While certainly a different subject it is an interesting question, so no apologies necessary.

The multiflora nana that I grow is likely the true species as it resembles R. multiflora in all but size and its repeat flowering. It grows only to 12-15

Thank you - I’m glad to hear that I presumed wrong, that there is a true multiflora nana which isn’t ‘The Gift’. Although the latter is small compared to a species that apparently grows 20-30 feet high in forests, it’s clearly larger than your plant!

How easily separated are multiflora and the remontant chinensis roses, I wonder? I’ve read that the repeat-blooming chinas may have derived their floral habits via hybridization with R. multiflora or a perpetually-flowering mutant thereof, and that true wild R. chinensis may be a strictly spring-flowering species.

I second David statements.

In an historical perspective the very first miniature roses ( decades before roulettii and Corevon) were named Lawranceanas or Rosa chinensis var. minima. Being no more than curiosities they were few varieties being considered worth of naming other than “alba duplex” or “carnea simplex” as it was the use. From the very beginning there has been trade of Lawrenceana rose seeds by french seed compagnies close to Switzerland. These seeds were sold long before and at Corevon time and may be the original source. I do not know if Lawrenceanas were imported or bred. They were considered as miniature china’s derivative.

Even if Corevon history is a nice one it is another fairy tale.

If I do not have precise infos about this; I am quite convinced that Angel Roses are a modernised version of the original Lawrenceanas. The leaves are very different, that is a lot smaller and more pointed than multifloras and multiflora nana. The later being possibly from china pollen. They look more like diminished Slater’s Crimson or Old Blush leaves.

No wonder then if they do not take cold.

"I was looking for some diploid mini

Hi Jadae.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I have considered those and other minis and mini polyanthas (I have a list of around 20 diploid minis) but unfortunately none of them are available in the UK. Miniature roses haven

Im sorry the UK doesnt carry many of them. Modern shipping just isnt modern enough yet! They need like giant tubes like they have at banks/stores that use air pressure to shoot things through. Just think how swift and cheap shipping could be! But then there’s security issues. Oh well. There are so many Euro, Aussie and Japanese roses that look interesting.

Okay Im looking through things.

What ploidy is Sweet Fairy and Nozomi? Im guessing diploid because of a rose called Tam-Tam that is Nozomi selfed x Bo-Beep. Just a guess tho.

Also note that Peek-a-boo is a tetraploid floribunda by a probably diploid mini groundcover. Is it triploid? Im wondering because Sweet Magic has Peek-a-boo as the seed parent and another tetraploid floribunda as the pollen parent.

Perhaps one could use Peekaboo as a pollen parent onto a diploid to create a new diploid? Also, Warner has a lot of hybrids using diploid parents.

Anyways, those may be routes of interest.

I always assume that the rather ambiguous word

Trawling through old posts… these little Angel Rose/Angel Wings roses have turned out to be really good here. Well worth getting and trying. This is the best of mine.

This photo was taken a few weeks ago. The flowers have just started to open. They are single and white and it repeats right up to, and into, winter. It looks very much like the photos of Multiflora ‘Nana’ on HMF.

It sets OP hips easily and the OP seed germinates easily, though this one seems to throw a fair few non-repeaters. It sets hips with modern tetraploids; however, I’ve not been able to get the seed from deliberate crosses to germinate yet. I’ve only put ‘Titian’ on it so far. This season I’m going to try ‘Coral Drift’ on it because it is diploid and a wich. hybrid and wich. seems to work well with multiflora types. If I can get any hulthemia to flower they are going onto it too.

The best thing about this little seedling is that for some reason the critters don’t like it. Whilst everything around it is getting annihilated it has been completely untouched. Aphids don’t even seem to touch it.

Critters and insects ignoring it makes it seem Banksiae-like. Might make an interesting mate for it.

Today… it flower around the bottom of its skirt first :wink:

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Downy mildew is starting to raise its head again too.

It looks like a very good bloomer and I love this short of petal shape when the flowers are single. I think if I had this one I would try to cross it with Mutabilis. Maybe on the critters maybe it something chemical like a bad taste. or it might be a little hairy. I bet if you had nothing but this one they would probably eat it. But it good to know that you can probably breed for this trait if you want.

On the subject of weird insect plant stuff. I love four o clocks and been working to create some wide crosses with them. So I was growing the regular garden variety and some wild species types. But I did not manage to get around to crossing them this winter so I dug the roots up after the first frost and got them in pots with rose cuttings under lights in hopes of doing some of these crosses in the winter. I would have repeated this in the garden if some of these species would have flowered in order to get seed. But since I did not get seed and most of these are not hardy and some were extremely hard to get genetic material of I moved the operation inside. Usually at this point of the year I have some problem with fungus knats. But not this year. I did not think about it until the other day when I noticed the one species has hairs all over it body and the knats are caught in the hairs. Whether I get something out of these crosses or not I have decided to I will at least try this species again next year as a means to keep the knat population down to a reasonable level. this has worked slightly better than sand so far. Mostly because sand always cakes at the top and then becomes harder to water. I just hope it will work equally well two years in a row.

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It met ‘Buff Beauty’ today.

Hi again G

I tried years to cross these roses with Rosa rugosa -no luck. I did get some luck crossing it with Ames #5 (Rosa multiflora X R. blanda) but did not per sue it. It may be easier to cross some of the fertile old diploid minis or reduce a tetraploid modern mini to a triploid then down to a diploid. An example is Betty Bland triploid (Rosa blanda X H. Per.) parent of diploid Therese Bugnet.


What may interest you is the mini that is respossible for Topaz Jewel -Golden Angel. It is triploid, reblooming, 30cm and yellow.

Hi Johannes,

I tried to cross these roses with a variety of diploid species too. The most successful crosses were with a thornless R. multiflora rootstock of Dr. Buck.

I tried to recreate the Grootendorst cross with them and with rugosas as the female parent seed is very abundant. I only have two seedlings the other direction. Even though the the year I went all out to make rugosa x these angel rose crosses I got 6,000+ seeds and 3,000+ germinations, for the most part they fell apart due to hybrid breakdown as confused runty seedlings. A few made it to maturity. I have a couple singles and a double left. The double one has the serrated petal edges to some extent like the Grootendorst roses. There is just one with minor female fertility. I’ve been dreaming of using it as a bridge to additional generations. Unfortunately, the few seedlings I have gotten off of it did not survive.

They cross quite readily with other Synstylae section species too. I have seedlings of angel roses with R. setigera and R. maximowicziana.

I think these roses are amazing and can be a great stepping stone. I have a group of crosses that are diploid with Golden Angel as a female. The yellow color basically got washed out to cream. Their fertility is minimal, but there is hope to go further with them. They tend to be more hardy and healthy like the angel rose parent. My Oso Happy Smoothie rose is a R. setigera / Angel rose descendant. I have some hybrids that are at the 4x level now which I really like and should work with more. The white rose is a seedling of a (mini x induced 4x plant of an Angel Rose) open pollinated. The small bloom in my hand is a typical bloom in terms of size of the Angel Roses.

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