Hi,
I would like to breed a rose with globular shape, like an old fashion one.
And I don’t like star shaped flowers.
Someone knows How occurs the dominance of flower shape in roses?
If you have some document about this, maybe some paper, please share with us.
Thank you,
Rodrigo.
Rodrigo, I don’t know of any paper on the subject. Probably the best tactic is to use roses of a shape like the one you’re trying to get. No guarantees, but you’re more likely to get what you want that way. And of course you’ll get lots of others of the shapes you don’t want, but maybe some of them will be pretty too.
Peter
Rodrigo,
I don’t have a paper to share, but you might be interested in ‘Constance Spry’, bred from the Gallica ‘Belle Isis’ and ‘Dainty Maid’, a single-flowered floribunda.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pictures/C/constancespry.html
The “trick” seems to be that the China/Tea ancestry brings length and width to the inner petals, so the flowers are rather globular rather than flat like the many-petalled Gallicas, etc.
You might try some of the old Hybrid Bourbon/Noisettes: ‘Blanche Lafitte’, ‘Coquette des Blanches’, ‘Lady Emily Peel’, ‘Perle des Blanches’ and ‘Boule de Neige’ are some possibilities. (I’m partial to ‘Lady Emily Peel’, but use what you have.) ‘Reine Victoria’ and ‘Mme Pierre Oger’ also come to mind. No doubt there are other HPs and Bourbons to consider.
Pollinate by the Floribundas or HTs of your choice, preferably those with broad petals.
Good luck,
Karl
Peter had good advice. Also, Karl is pointing you toward the David Austin roses which may be the sort you are looking for. Also check out some of the Griffith Buck roses. They vary widely.
There have been a few papers recently where two very different roses were crossed to generate a population for mapping the QTLs of various traits. The authors made many measures but don’t always spell out exactly what they were scoring. You might find information of petal arrangement and shape in one of those papers, or perhaps one of the authors would tell you if you simply asked directly.
One important question- are you more concerned about the bud, or the fully open flower? Some very nice high centered buds open rather quilly, but others have rounded petals and don’t fold back even when fully open.
A couple years ago I got a very cupped yellow (misnamed) from a local big box store. It had fertile pollen and a cross onto CArefree BEauty gave a moderately cupped flower. High centered flowers tend toward high centered offspring with CB. So I think it is a more or less quantitative trait, not just a single dominant gene one way or other.
I’ve used Rainbow Knock Out on lots of roses. I consider it a cupped single. It tends toward giving short, round, somewhat cupped petals in offspring, even with a classic floribunda Golden Slippers. I’ve not seen the full range of diversity, only kept a few because most were too near single.
I would say, look carefully on HelpMeFind roses and then see what meets your other criteria. like hardiness, color, plant form. Get a few that suit you and cross them. My impression is that you will find a lot more that suit you among roses classified as shrub or floribunda than among the HTs. For instance, I’ve not mentioned an HT in this whole group of observations and speculations. I hope this helps some.
Hi Guys,
Here’s a Kordesii hybrid that demonstrates that trait. I’m breeding for the David Austin-ish
look in yellow, but some times something like this shows up.
The buds took over a week to open. Our cooler weather maybe the cause.
Chuckp
Hi guys,
Thank you Peter, Karl, Larry and Chuck for your advices. Karl made a good point about tea and china ancestry, I’ll look more carefully about that. I’m using some HP with modern roses already. Larry, I’m looking for the globular and cuped shape even when the blossom is fully open, I have a couple high centered HTs that open slower and don’t fold back.
Chuck, is It Rotkapptchen Rose? I have Rotkapptchen, looks very like this one, I’m using It but I didn’t saw the offspring yet. It is globular in most time and has a very good petals count and shape. But It has short petals and open to a flat flower, I’m trying to improve this. Thank you guys for your time and attention. I just love this forum.
Sincerely,
Rodrigo.
I just remembered- Rhode Island Red. Very fine rose. Fragrant, cupped, deep red, but not super prolific flowering in my setting. A Brownell rose.
Thanks Rodrigo,
This seedling is one of mine.
Chuckp
Here is an example of inheritance of flower form.
‘Cody’ was raised from ‘Sweet Chariot’ pollinated by ‘Margo Koster’. ‘Sweet Chariot’ has lots of narrow petals. ‘Margo Koster’ has fewer petals, but they are broader and cupped. ‘Cody’ had plenty of petals, cupped and intermediate in width.
I had a crazy notion that I might get something in purple with orange highlights, or orange with purple shading. No such luck. But I was still happy with the result.
Cody
Sweet Chariot
Margo Koster
Not a bad looking plant Karl.
David,
Thanks. ‘Sweet Chariot’ is supposed to be a weeper – at least when grown in a pot. It never weeped for me. But ‘Cody’ was more lax growing. Sadly, I lost it long ago. I would like to repeat the cross, if I can find ‘Margo Koster’ next year.
This year I’ve been crossing ‘Sweet Chariot’ with ‘Gloire de Dijon’, hoping for a Floribunda type.
Years ago I crossed ‘Sweet Chariot’ with ‘Comtesse du Cayla’ and got one seedling with bright red flowers. Maybe SC x GdD will give a similar color.
Karl
Lovely roses Karl. When I was looking for previous use of Margo Koster I saw Cody in another post and I just love It, Congratulations! I found Margo Koster here in Brazil as a climber sport. I’m thinking in purchase It to use. Is It diploid?
Rodrigo
Rodrigo,
Yes, ‘Margo Koster’ is diploid.
‘Orange Mothersday’ is another nice one, closely related to ‘Margo Koster’. It is darker orange. Both are sports of sports of sports, going back to ‘Echo’, which was a dwarf, everblooming sport of ‘Tausendschon’. Then there is ‘Vatertag’ (Fathers’ Day), which is similar to ‘Margo Koster’.
It is a large family.
Karl
Thanks Karl, good informations. When I was searching for Margo Koster ancestry I’ve noticed this “high sport potential” in that lineage.
In this week I did go to a town, to an old hospital, where I found a pretty globular rose at the garden, soft pink, sounds like an old china. I’m attaching a picture here. Isn’t a good pic because was darking.
I got some cuttings! We’ll see.
Thank you, always.
Rodrigo
Rodrigo,
I wish you good luck with the pink China. It is important to preserve the old varieties. We don’t know yet what value they may have for breeding.
I found a specimen of the Japanese Rosa multiflora with cupped flowers growing here in Tennessee. I should get some cuttings to root … if I can find the original plant.
Karl
Such beauty! It remember me a cherry flower (or strawberry flower) some how.
Pretty little tea cups.
Rodrigo