Lori
Thanks.
I’m rather used to thorns as well, but only for the first generation. I was hoping that it was something to do with too small a sample. Last year I got an op seedling with some thorns from R. pendulina, Henry Kelsey’s neighbour, & wasn’t going to keep it for that reason. I left if out in it’s pot overwinter, & it grew well without any protection. So now I have to keep it to see the blooms. Cinnamomeae sounds exciting. I do passive hybridizing as well. I like to put compatible roses together to see what takes.
Lori,
I have Lafter; were the seedlings you mentioned OP? If they were crosses, what did you cross Lafter with; was it the mater or the pater? On the East Coast of USA, Lafter is considered quite healthy and hardy. Would like to try it.
Jim
Lori,
I’m surprised with the variety of seedlings you got from Henry Kelsey that the same can’t be said of them having the chance at remotely possessing any fragrance…especially if your HK is planted near r. cinnamomea plena. I admit not being able to stand Explorer roses for their undisputed lack of fragrance.
Is fragrance a recessive trait in the offspring?
I have a plant of r. cinnamomea plena/majalis foecundissima (Double Cinnamon Rose) that is sterile, very double, fragrant, and pollen almost impossible to extract. So I planted it next to other fertile species & OGR’s for the bees to do the crossing .
Dee
My John Cabot seedlings are all fragrant. It all depends on which momma you use. & the substance is better if you bring a modern rose into the mix.
So you’re suggesting that balance be achieved between substance & fragrance. Morden Sunrise comes to mind, certain Austins, Double Delight and Stephen’s Big Purple, all of which spew out enough perfume to fill a room as cut flowers. The fact that John Cabot gives you fragrant seedlings makes me question which Explorers and Parklands make better mothers for imparting or sustaining fragrance?
And what did you cross with your John Cabot so that its seedlings be so fragrant?
Dee
I used an orange/yellow floribunda “Almost Wild” Embers from White Rose. It gives it a bit of a fruity foetida scent along with the faint apple scent typical of the explorers. I don’t think Embers has much scent & it’s barely semi-double. I used it for colour, substance, health & readily available pollen. All the seedlings bloomed under lights & their baby pictures were all very nice, but they were little more than single. The blooms became much fuller after the plants matured.
I was fortunate that John Cabot imparted the cane hardiness & the clusters of bloom. I don’t think you can predict scent. It’s really the chance shuffling of genetics.
I have an op typical explorer seedling from who knows what explorer that was growing in a parking lot & it smells of gallica. It’s whatever pops up from the distant past. My feeling is that you’re giving the rose an opportunity to express it’s genetic history. It’s not an intellectual exercise.
Re Lafter: I have a very good Lafter X Elina from many years ago; the fall blooms are huge, very double, and colored somewhat like Distant Drums. Very healthy.
I have to admit that my sense of smell has always been very poor. My husband swears that many of the roses have scent that I say don’t. So I’ll need to drag him around the test garden to help me make the decision as to which to keep. Also I’ve found that the sun shining on a warm day makes a big difference. I’m glad to hear that r. cinnamomeae is being used by others.
Dave your Lafter x Elina sounds wonderful. I’ve always admired the color of Distant Drums.
Sounds like you’ve lots of company Mike(Jadae) and you can count me among them. I thought I was the only one feeling angsty about how little I’m getting done. Although I found Rosa setigera still alive (when I thought it was gone) and Rosa wichuraiana and Rosa palustris are also still blooming, so… I might still be able to get out there and try something unusual. I’d love to see wichuraiana combined with either of those other two species.
Maybe your circumstances are just trying to make you focus on that uber vigorous Rosa californica x Royal Amethyst seedling. It sounds like a really cool path to start traveling!
Re: Fragrance
I agree with Lydia about the difficulty in predicting fragrance. It’s such a complicated “stew” of biochemistry that gives roses their varied and complex scents, that it’s impossible to calculate what exactly you’ll get from most crosses. I’ve had surprise after surprise when trying to imagine what seedlings should smell like.