J.B.M. Camm or cold hardier bourbons?

Has anyone grown or worked with J.B.M. Camm?
I couldn’t find any descendants listed.
It is listed as a cross of a Hybrid Perpetual with a Bourbon; yet it is listed as zone 4, in both HMF and Rogue Valley Roses. Can anyone confirm the hardiness of this rose?

Along these lines, what are the hardiest of the Bourbons? Or, are there roses you would recommend working with for the form and fragrance in bloom you get with a Bourbon? Obviously better disease resistance would be a great benefit, as well as cold hardiness, from a different rose, but the same look and fragrance would be desired.

At this point I have a seedling I am working with that reminds me of a Bourbon. Also I am attempting working with Olivia Rose Austin (mostly useful as a pollen parent).

Any thoughts anyone?

I haven’t grown ‘J. B. M. Camm’, but based on my experience when I was growing roses in zone 4a, ‘Louise Odier’ would probably get my vote; it still only retained a little cane after each winter, but that was better than others of the class that I tried. I believe that it has been recommended by others for its relatively decent hardiness, too. It is wonderfully fragrant and is fertile, so it might be worth a try in your program. Black spot resistance isn’t great, of course.


Louise Odier has been on my list since I started growing roses, and yet I’ve never grown it. I’ve seriously considered working with it. I probably will make it more of a priority since it seems to be a bit more cold hardy than others. Retaining even some cane is doing pretty good: did you have much snow protection there? Mulch heavily?
Blackspot is going to be a long term project. I wonder how Louise does crossed with a rose with strong disease resistance?
Thanks for the advice!

I usually protected it with a mound of mulch just to make sure that the crown and roots wouldn’t be in jeopardy if there was a lack of snow (it started out as a relatively small own-root rose), and I believe that it usually had wood alive above the mulch, but probably not all the way to the snow line. It was certainly hardier than ‘Zephirine Drouhin’, 'Mme Pierre Oger, ‘Coquette des Blanches’ and (of course) ‘Souvenir de la Malmaison’. I believe the plant is still alive, and I could ask again about its hardiness come spring, but it is still fairly small because of black spot, shade, and deer. I know that I used it successfully at least once as a seed parent. The seedling that I remember from the cross was not black spot resistant, but the other parent probably wouldn’t have had a strong impact on its resistance anyway.


I am surprised, but glad, to hear it was so cold hardy for you.
I’ve never grown Bourbons because of the cold. I did buy one that was supposed to be MMe. Pierre Oger (which turned out to be something else) When I started growing roses in the central midwest. Oh yes, I did get Bourbon Queen on clearance from High Country one year: wish I had taken it with us when we moved.
I’ll have to give Louise a try if I can find it in stock somewhere.
We have plenty of snow for protection here, so it should do well.
Thanks again!

We usually had reliable and long-lasting snow cover, too, which is probably why the plant survived for so many years (20+). It was also growing at the base of an oak tree, which might have helped a little, but I’m not sure. According to HelpMeFind.com, the Swedish Rose Society recommends it for northern Sweden, so it isn’t just my experience!


It would be interesting to know how cold hardy the seed parent was? Did it get it from her, or from the pollen donor?
And why is it so much more cold hardy than other Bourbons?
Not trying to look a gift horse in the mouth, but find it interesting.
Especially as that is my goal in breeding.
Thanks for the info!

I don’t think that information is very likely to come to light, unfortunately. The seed parent might be extinct, or floating around under some other identity, and the pollen donor was never known or even guessed at. The inheritance of cold hardiness probably isn’t so straightforward in the first place, but any rose closely descended from ‘Rose Edouard’ without too much further genetic dilution and a little luck might have just enough Damask in it to possess the kind of hardiness we’re talking about.


A very good point!
This got me to thinking: I had remembered someone mentioning Bourbon Queen was more cold hardy than expected (although I don’t know how cold hardy that is exactly). It is listed as a cross of two seedlings from Rose Edouard, perhaps this nearness accounting for more cold hardiness?
Does anyone know how Queen of Bourbons compares to Louise Odier in the cold hardiness department?

I am looking for the most cold hardy repeat blooming old roses, as an option for back crossing my seedlings to.
I am looking at Portland roses also, but if there are more cold hardy Bourbons that would give another option.
I have several once blooming old roses that are hybrids, that might theoretically offer repeat bloom.

I can’t comment on its hardiness where I live now, but the answer to your question might depend on whether anyone answering (or you!) grows the real ‘Bourbon Queen’. The rose that I purchased from ARE is a subtly striped once-blooming creature that doesn’t really look or smell like other Bourbons to me. Graham Thomas evidently thought the same. There appear to be multiple plants in cultivation under the name, though maybe not all are found in the same regions of the globe. Some form of the plant was apparently authenticated as a likely direct descendant of ‘Rose Edouard’, but that was in France, and some of the photos of ‘Bourbon Queen’ growing in Europe do look very different (and more Bourbon) to me.

For its ability to transmit repeat bloom to offspring, I would also say that ‘Louise Odier’ has value; most of the old European rose classes are very mixed bags on the whole, so paying attention to which ones have produced good, repeat-blooming offspring is important. ‘Mme Boll’ (called ‘Comte de Chambord’ by most folks today, however incorrectly) might be another good choice, and also has reasonable cold-hardiness.


I had not read much about Bourbon Queen. Looking at it, there is Queen of Bourbons available from High Country Roses, which is the one I grew previously. From Rogue Valley Roses there is a Bourbon Queen (Celine) listed with a picture, and then a Queen of Bourbons listed that does not have a picture. On HMF they show both names for the same rose (although I did not notice Celine as a name). The pictures on Rogue Valley for Bourbon Queen don’t look (to my eye) to be the same rose as High Country Roses. Perhaps that is the other rose they have listed without a picture?
It has been a long time since I grew it, but I don’t remember any repeat on Queen of Bourbons. Also, I don’t remember the fragrance standing out to me. It was nearly twenty years ago, but I do remember the fragrance of Comte de Chambord: it was the very first rose we grew (the one that started it all)!
I’ll move Louise Odier to the top of my list, and keep an eye out for Comte de Chambord as well. I have Gertrude Jeckyl (from Comte) but don’t hold high hopes for it. I have never tried The Countryman (also from Comte).
Has anyone had much success from Comte de Chambord, aside from Austin of course?
I have considered Baron Prevost, as I remember the blooms being drop dead gorgeous. But I’m wondering if repeat would not be sufficient from them? Is there a difference in repeat gained from Bourbon, Portland, or Hybrid Perpetual? I’ve read a lot of seedlings from Portlands with moderns are not remontant.
Thanks again!