‘Lila Banks’ should be available next season on a limited basis if you want to play with Banksia hybrids Jadae. I can’t speak to it’s hardiness, probably not great but perhaps better than Bankisa itself. Apparently it’s quite blackspot resistant from what my friend from upstate NY has shared with me.
Hi, Paul. I did mention Indian Love Call, it’s the Anne Harkness X Legacy seedling. Basye wrote that had he the time and opportunity to do it over, he would include Wichuraiana in the mix, then self and select for thornlessness. Including either Lynnie, or Golden Angel would bring that species into the pool, but you could also use the thornless Wichuriana with the repeat blooming roses, cross the different strains of thornless seedlings and try selfing the results. Recessives are forever. One parent of Legacy is already selfed. I am NOT a fan of too much inbreeding. I’m most comfortable keeping it at a minimum, and more desirably after quite a few different lines are brought together so there are many differing sets of genes to be worked with. Joe Winchell notoriously inbred his roses and it resulted in some pretty awful plants. Saville did similarly. Selfing Lynnie and My Stars then crossing the results together is like marrying within your family. That’s too much homogenization and it impresses me that your results are not going to be what you hope for. Self seedlings of Legacy often are non repeaters and frequently not vigorous.
Hey Robert 
miss chattin’ with ya. Lila Banks would be useful for groundcovers if plant shape and cold hardiness could be aligned with the ground cover shrub expectation. You should try it with Daydreamer!
Hi Jadae, yes, that would be a good choice. I was thinking something closer to wichuraiana like 'Simon Robinson’or ‘Red Fairy’ but still doesn’t give us out thornlessness we were looking for.
Thornlessness is definitely ideal but I think a really low thorn count is acceptable for this as well. Iceberg is a great example. I dont think about being slashed when Im pruning it yet I do know it has a few thorns here and there. I remember when I was a newbie and had Seafoam. Man did that thing hurt.That thing was a demon masquerading as a rose that had a bias towards protecing weedy grasses within itself! hehe
Daydream is especially interesting because it contains a large quantityy of R.chinensis (relatively speaking) in it via Nastrana like your Lila Banks does. It does have some R. wich via Kordesii in Henry Kelsey as well but not a ton I would assume.
I like ‘Daydream’ but it has no listed descendants. Does anyone have experience with it as seed parent? ‘Lila Banks’ is much better used as pollen parent though it has produced at least some op seedlings.
True about Daydream. I’ll keep an eye out to see if it has none, few or many OP hips when visiting places. Washington Park has several large beds of it but they prune regularly. I did note when I was looking at it there that the branches were kind of strange in contrast to others. They had prickles but they were kind of like a multitude of stubby pin dots and not really thorn-like in nature. Oh man now Im gonna have to check again to be sure.
I haven’t made controlled crosses onto ‘Daydream’. I confirmed it is triploid this spring and decided not to use it as a parent. In large landscape plantings of it there are some op hips with a single to a few seeds in them. I collected a number of them and hope to find some more fertile seedlings which hopefully would be either diploid or tetraploid. ‘Lavender Dream’ the female parent of ‘Daydream’ is triploid as well.
David
‘Simon Robinson’ should be triploid too?
I was looking at the Violet Hood-Verdi-Rosy Purple line as well but it seems there is a pollen parent only pattern going on. Mr. Bluebird seems to work as female but it isnt a landscape rose in itself so that kind of point even if the color is neat.
I’ve raised op seedlings of Violet Hood. I think there is some hope there. I preserved a once blooming seedling and have had success with it as a rootstock. It is thornless. I used it’s pollen for the first time this season and it seems potent. I have a bit of seed chilling now.
I haven’t tried using Daydream as a pollen parent but this past summer I used Daydream as a seed parent with no success. I pollinated with both tetraploid and diploid pollen. If I recall correctly for tetraploid pollen I used Purple Heart, International Herald Tribune, Heirloom and The Squire.
The diploids I used were Orleans Rose, The Fairy and Robin Hood.
Daydream did set a number of OP hips but I got no viable seed from it, all were floaters and hollow.
Bummer about Daydream. btw I have found Purple Heart super hard to work with in either direction. I hope Ebb Tide behaves better in that department.
I thought it would be better to post here instead of creating a new thread–
Anyways,
Seedlings of 77-361 have really stomped me. The one Queen Elizabeth X 77-361 seedling I’ve mentioned here used to be thorny. Now it’s putting out canes without any thorns. Infact, all new growth is thornless.
I guess thorns may have to do with the weather. This year it got more rain than usual.
Perhaps water is a factor when we’re talking about thornless seedlings. Kim’s Lynnie is also putting out thornless canes, although last year a good few them were quite prickly.
But the two Pacific Serenade X 77-361 seedlings from last year are indeed thorny.
Last year I tried to cross my seedling with Lynnie, although it seems that both roses inherited Legacy’s ability to shed pollen early. So I’m not sure these seedlings are selfs or true hybrids.
I think that to take full adantage of Legacy, we need to cross its seedlings for several generations to stabalize its thornlessness (and disease resistance).
Enrique, you might try selfing your QE X 77-361 seedling and seeing if one of the selfs might stabilize the thornless trait. As for the various sources of “Basye’s Thornless” plants, they’re all the same.
The one called Basye’s Legacy came from the plant in The Huntington Study Plot. This plant was sent to them by Dr. Basye and identified as 77-361.
Some years ago, I met David Neumeyer on Garden Web. He’d visited Dr. Basye some years before and Dr. Basye handed him a sucker from a rose which Dr. Basye identified to him as Commander Gillette, or 65-626, one of the parents of 77-361. David asked me what to do with it to save it as he was moving out of state. I suggested he send it to Sequoia, which he did. Mr. Moore had received a plant of “Basye’s Thornless” some years before any of these became availble. All three roses are absolutely identical. Dr. Basye seems to be the source of any misidentification which may have occurred.
Dr. Basye, himself, suggested selfing his thornless seedling to fix the thornless trait. He also wrote he would include Wichuraiana in the mix, self this cross to isolate the thornless trait then begin breeding with those which are thornless. You may find a self of the QE X Legacy may prove more useful than the original seedling.
So far all of the crosses utilizing 77-361 have yielded offspring with varying degress of thornlessness. The only one I know that is totally smooth is Kim’s “Softee x Bayse’s Legacy”.
77-361 offspring tend to be disease resistant and tend toward having red stems and a deciduous nature. Most seem fairly hardy from the few reports I’ve gathered.
“Softee x Bayse’s Legacy” has produced quite prickled seedlings when used as pollen parent.
I am trying it as a seed parent this season which is difficult as the blossoms open very quickly and it tends to shed it’s pollen early. OP seedlings germinate easily but are generally unimpressive.