If you are interested in using Buck roses in your hybridizing:



Link: docs.google.com/View?docid=dggskxwv_0s4fw27f2

Hi Henry!

Thank you for the very interesting Link to this work!

A good thing to do on weekends … reading. :slight_smile:

Its always interesting to see a few new names and the comparings in the tabular.

E.g. I have heared of “Carefree Beauty” before, but never seen it, its a nice rose.

If one takes “Baby Love” - there the lineage says “Rosa davidii elongata” in the end.

But I couldn’t see anything in the lineage, what gives hints to the resistance type.

Is it known, where the good health of “Carefree Beauty” does come from?



Strange that such a good rose is nearly unknown here in Germany.

Is there really so much water between Europe and the USA??

“Carefree Beauty”

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=1.974

Three of the resistant listed come from Music Maker and Music Maker comes from Praire Princess as does Carefree Beauty. Is anyone using Praire Princess? I don’t see it mentioned on here very often. Is there something wrong with it or is it just that the offspring are easier to work with.


Thank you, Henry for posting this report. It is especially pertinent to me because I live in the upper Midwest where this study was done. I was glad to see that I have four out of the top five varieties.

I agree with what the study says about regional variability with regards to black spot resistance. I have numerous varieties that have problems with black spot for me, but do well in other parts of the country and vice versa (Therese Bugnet and R.glauca come to mind).

Patrick, using Prairie Princess in our breeding programs is a good idea. It seems to pass on disease resistance quite readily. I don

Prairie Princes grows as a large climber for me in Central Virginia and has long canes reaching out in multi directions whereas Carefree Beauty grows as a self supporting upright shrub about 4-5 feet high and more suitable for confined spaces.



I did the reciprocal of that cross this year. Carefree Beauty is, by far, the better seed parent. Baby Love will sets hips but from what Jim Sproul told me the seeds don’t do very well. That being the case I never tried Baby Love X Carefree Beauty.


I don’t think Prairie Princess gets that big here probably because it dies to the snow line most winters. But it is a larger plant than Carefree Beauty and like you say, is not likely suited for smaller gardens.

Hi Mike,

That’s great that you did that cross. You’re way ahead of me. I can’t wait to find out how they turn out. You’re right Carefree Beauty x Baby Love most likely would be better than Baby Love x Carefree Beauty. I was just speculating on crossing the two roses and didn’t put enough thought into which way would work better. In other words I was winging it.


In my climate Carefree Beauty is much more resistant to BS then Baby Love. In fact Baby Love is not resistant at all here. I am in MD.


Hi olga!

Baby Love is not resistant to all types of BS.

But its pretty good.

The way to make it better is called “pyramidization”.

One can perhaps achieve this, if several DIFFERENT resistancies are being combined and shown in one plant.

Thats what is desireable as a kind of a “wind shield” in the end.

Greetings from Germany,


Hi Patrick,

You said: “Three of the resistant listed come from Music Maker and Music Maker comes from Praire Princess as does Carefree Beauty.”

Then it could be, e.g., a resistancy from Wichuraiana or Spinosissima …



Thank you, Arno.


I bought All The Rage today. It was a 2 yr own-root! It is a Buck descendant via Prairie Princess. It is supposedly an apricot/coral pink/orange toned mix.

I want to cross it with Rosa virginiana and then back into modern roses :slight_smile:

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=50784&tab=1

Hi Jadae,

I got All the Rage last year. It seems like a nice rose so far. Cheerful warm colored semidouble blooms. If I remember right I think I read it is a cross of Morden Centennial x All that Jazz. Morden Centennial is a seedling of PP. It seemed healthy last year for me and it was nice to read in that Tennessee report it seems resistant there too.

‘Baby Love’ is a great rose and agree with you Arno about pyrimiding genes. It may be awhile before that can happen well though. It takes confirmation of what is pyrimided and characterization and maintenance of blackspot races. It sounds like Debener is doing stuff like that in Germany and I know the people trying to do that here at the U of Minnesota. I think we can use many more race specific resistance genes characterized to work with to begin making good progress. Perhaps ‘Baby Love’ and the advanced selections of Debener’s with RDR1 are a good start.

It would be great if we could select for increased horizontal and vertical resistance at the same time. I suspect vertical resistance genes are good, but may not be enough and we should think about horizontal resistance too. I’ve seen a badly infected ‘Baby Love’ like Olga. After that single resistance gene is overcome by that one race that can do it, there is not much resistance left in the underlying genetics of ‘Baby Love’. Hopefully stacking two race specific resistance genes in one rose will help a lot. I guess it just depends on what virulence alleles are out there in the pathogen populations.




Horizontal resistance is a must for different reasons:

First: vertical resistance is nothing when a new pathogen strains overcomes it. Like you saw, Baby Love was wonderfully healthy and strong here for… two years. Since it is nothing better than the average cv for BS resistance that is mostly defoliated and weak.

I commercially grew lettuces when the first Bremia resistant vars were released some forty years ago. Bremia strains were three then; I personally found one more, actually there are twenty six known strains.

Second: resistances are often environment dependent.

Either they are overcome with hight inoculum pressure i.e. during rainy spells in the nurseries fields or rosariums.

Even the best at desease resistance species are susceptible if environment is bad enough.

Usually quite healthy Rosa rugosa is eventually desease ridden as well as laevigata.

Many cvs are quite dependably resistant in cool spring and no more when a summer hot wet spell occurs.

It’s not always poor environmental conditions that are the issue. Common horticultural practices are often poor in many cases. For example, physical structures that block air circulation are abundant, and the gardener completely ignored this fact. This is true at Washington Park. There are 2 large beds on a slope. They always have disease save for a few select varieties. Why? Because the park planted these slope beds between a stand of large climbers behind them on the upper elevation of the slope and several large beds at the bottom of the slope. There is zilch for air circulation between these two masses of roses.

So, when someone says that a variety is diseased I often wonder if they even know proper horticultural practices (water, soil, air circulation, pruning, lighting, some source of energy, etc).

Hi David!

You said: "It would be great if we could select for increased horizontal and vertical resistance at the same time. "

Thats exactly the point, and at least Debeners group here in Germany is definetly trying this since at least about 15 years ago - but not by crossings any more, they use the direct ways to insert pieces of DNA or to make protoplasmatic fusions.

I am just an amateur and I want to stay an amateur. :wink:

So what could we do as amateurs?

Take what we can get and breed with it, as if we would die tomorrow.

(Of course the selection of the right idiotypes is extremely important, here, not only the selection of resistant Rose species.

Meanwhile new papers of the working groups are coming out and we have lots of things to read and learn.

Thats a lot of fun!

According to Baby Love again: it would be important to understand more, what kind of resistancy is shown here.

Is it an active cell reaction or a passive mechanism?

Is it coded monogenetically or polygenetically?

In my opinion it would be really enough, to have two different (!) types of resistancies together in one plant.

Because one mechanism will block the main portion of funghi and the other mechanism would be there to make sure, that in times of trouble for the plant, a second emergancy mechanism will do the job.

I think this is especially then realistic also for amateur breeders, when the genetical coding is on different chromosomes.

Perhaps we should open a thread for that reason here in the forum:

Where are all the mechanisms coded in the rose genome?

Remember, there already is first knowledge on the issue, e.g. Rdr1 is on chromosome Nr. 1 and so on.

The more info we would have on this issue, the better we would be able to breed as amateurs, too, thinking within these “coupling-groups”.

Greetings from Germany,


I don’t use Baby Love for the resistance alone. It’s color is unique (a nice yellow, fades little and isn’t gaudy), it passes on orange, too. And it LOVES to bloom. Also, it can pass on mildew resistance, too. This is good news for mauve and orange roses. I dont think I’d breed roses if it were for disease resistance alone. That is one facet of many (important, yes, but still one facet). For instance, I’m happy that the newer yellow and apricot roses, with some exceptions, are beginning to not resent the wet winter soils of the PNW! Some of you may see a lot of winter die back from freezing, but when I was new to roses, I would see a lot of winter die back from the crowns being wet all winter long. (lol the irony of St. Patrick was that it’s parents were two of the worst offenders of this issue). Now, the only winter dampness issue is the increased chance of crown gall. It doesn’t matter how well you drain if you live at the bottom of a valley, it can and will happen lol. Which reminds me, Baby Love has not been suspect to any of these issues yet, which is great for a yellow!

Carefree Beauty and Prairie Princess are both excellent female parents. I usually do most pollinations on recurrent roses in the greenhouse, but there is no need with these two. Also, they both grow as vines in the greenhouse, get tons of mildew (at least carefree beauty does), and are hard to work with. Neither ever show substantial blackspot or mildew outdoors.

Baby Love does blackspot here (lower Michigan, zone 5). It is indeed a poor female parent: I got only 3 hybrids from a great many crosses. I suspect that neither Carefree Beauty nor Prairie Princess are hardy enough to cross with Baby Love and give hardy offspring here. That is too bad, as it sounds like a great cross. I know that Baby Love can pass on yellow color, even when the other parent isn