Yesterday, I found the newly released book ‘The English Roses’ by David Austin. I was disappointed that the descriptions of the cultivars was mostly copied from the DA catalogue, and that the strategy that Austin used for the last couple of years was specified in very general terms (useless for a breeder to learn from).
However, I found this passage:
“Hyde Hall is ideal for [use as a hedge]. It is related to R. fedtschenkoana, a large species rose that is naturally repeat-flowering. This has enabled us to breed a large shrub with a remarkable ability to repeat flower - two characteristics that do not usually go together.”
On the DA website, the description of Hyde Hall contains the following: “It owes [the ability to flower with exceptional continuity] to its unusual and original parentage.”
Hyde Hall was released in Europe in 2004. I don’t think it is available in North America yet. It may be of interest as a parent.
Rob, thanks for that info. It is available from David Austin Roses in the US (somewhat expensive). It has little scent, but did repeat. It struck me as a very pleasing shrub, in part due to the mix of light and dark pink of the petals. The picture in the online catalogue is a pretty fair representation. I bought it in part because it claimed to be very hardy, though I’m always somewhat leery of that term when used in catalogues. I used it this summer and it set all kinds of hips. We’ll see if they germinate. Thanks, Joe
Just an update on Hyde Hall. i’ve just gotten 5 seedlings (one of which had a 4 inch root) from two crosses. i had thought i’d been keeping up on checking to see if anything was sprouting, but maybe i just missed it. i do expect more to come. Thanks, joe
Is the R. fedtschenkoana reference Mr Austin’s coy way of saying that the rose has Damask in it? This rose was introduced rather recently – well after the time researchers doing DNA analyses determined that both summer and autumn damask roses had R.f. in them. (The summer and autumn damasks are both derived from (R. moschata X R. gallica) X R. fedtschenkoana.) As I understand it, the R.f. is considered the reason that roses such as Quatre Saisons and some of the perpetuals have rebloom. I would be surprised however if I were to learn that Hyde Hall had absolutely no tea in its lineage. That doesn’t seem very David Austin to me, but I too know nothing of his more recent breeding programs (er… programmes)
I personally confess that I have no experience with the damasks, though I recently acquired a R. fedt… It is a rather attractive plant, I find. I don’t know how readily its offspring inherit its penchant for suckering… I am actually surprised that HelpMeFind lists no descendants of R. fedt… I have felt that this species had potential. I imagine it would require a few crosses however…
In the next issue of the National Roses Canada publication, I have an article on the failed University of Guelph rose breeding program of the late 1970’s and 80’s. An important part of the breeding program was crossing Rosa fedtchenkoana with modern roses. I list several cultivars that were crossesd with Rosa fedtschenkoana. The F1 progeny tended to have a sprawly habit with relatively small foliage and the form of Rosa fedtchenkoana. Backcrosses were done to the modern roses pistillate parent to improve flower quality. However, it was thought it would take several more generations of breeding to obtain an acceptable combination of cold hardiness and flower quality. This, of course, never happened. Unfortunately, all this valuable germplasm was lost. It could have been used in other Canadian rose breeding programs.
By the way, the Rosa fedtchenkoana plant used was obtained from Dr. Griffith Buck.
I used my plant of R. fedtschenkoana as a pollen source for crosses for the first time last year. I got a reasonable amount of seed, BUT I now doubt that it is correctly identified.
I looked at the plant and at various British rose books and the message was consistent: R. fedtschenkoana: pared nodal thorns (with perhaps some additional, smaller, scattered thorns), elongated, bristly hips, and sporadic bloom throughout the season. My plant: scattered thorns of many sizes, but no real concentration at the nodes, flattened, smooth hips, and one early, heavy bloom. I think my plant may be a form of R. spinosissima.
I don’t think the nursery I purchased it from is to blame. I found another North American nursery that carefully watches its stock, and their description sounds like my rose, not the English one. From his articles, Buck seems to have had the right one. I wonder if an imposter has become established in North America since that time. It would be easy enough, considering how often roses described as recurrent by one source can fail to be recurrent under other circumstances. If anyone knows of a source of the genuine species, I’d love to hear about it.
Dr. Roger Mitchell, Ferris State University, Big Rapids, Michigan (zone 5)
How neat someone is finally playing with Fedtschenkoana! I’ve loved this “species” for twenty years. Here are several links to some of my explorations with it. Kim Rupert
Kim, that was one of the best rose stories I’ve read. Especially if the story has sentimental value and death. A book about refinding lost roses, or roses with a background story-- now that’s something I would buy in a snap.
I wish I could say about the same thing about my R. moschata abysinica. Nope. I asked for cuttings when it was being trimmed, took a few branches home and made a few dozen cuttings. Only one took.
Although, I’ve done a lot of investigation work on moschata abysinica, and it is very fascinating. The one in SCU and in my garden is “connected” to the Bible. Haile Selassie, founder of the Rastafari movement, gave the plant to Father Schoener. Supposedly, Haile Selassie was the decendent of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba.
Perhaps I could write paper on this for Peter. I know I was collecting info on this rose a while back and wrote quite a few things. But it has to wait till I find the time.
Thank you, Enrique. I’ve posted several “vignettes” on Help Me Find about roses which have sentimental value to me. You can find them by browsing the Recent Posts on the Q&A Forum. They include the one above, Silver Moon, Stanwell Perpetual, Grandmother’s Hat, “Purple Poly Seedling”, Polly and Red Radiance. You can also find notes and information I’ve posted about my seedlings there. Search breeders for my name, then click on “plants bred by”. It would be great if others would post information about their seedlings there. At least, it would provide provenance about them. I’ve received quite a few inquiries about what I’ve used and why from those posts. Please give it a try! Thank you. Kim
Martin, do you know where that parentage (and maybe the parentages of the other Belgian roses) would be listed? I’ve written to RVS (now it’s called DVP) to inquire about the RVS roses, and have received almost no response. After a long delay, after a followup by me, a list of the DVP roses was sent me, but it contained no information regarding parentages. A followup email to inquire about parentages went unanswered, as did a forward of that email to the same person–the one in charge of rose research.
The parentage of all the roses created by RvS (now DvP) are listed in the book “Rozeninzicht” (ISBN 90-403-0208-1), published in 2004 by themselves. The first part discuss breeding techniques and diseases, the second part discuss all their roses, including parentage, medals and pictures. I think it will be very difficult to order this book in the US. I have an extra copy and will send this to you in Charleston. The booklet is in Dutch, but parentages will be clear for you.
Last summer I used Floranje as a parent (a few hundred seelings now). For that reason I approached DvP regarding the given pollen parent (Burghausen, Kordes 1991!!)in the booklet. Floranje was crossed in 1985!! and released in 1990. DvP confirmed me the given parentage and explained, being a research institute, to cooperate with other breeders in different programs and having in this way sometimes avaibility over roses before they are released.
Apologies. I’m glad to see your seedlings listed! The R.f. to which I was referring is one of your stock. Thanks for refreshing my memory on its history. I’m happy to report that the plant survived Katrina’s wrath, unlike so many! I haven’t tried hybridizing with it yet, but it is a winsome species. I confess though that I have it in a pot still where it can’t misbehave too badly.
Martin, thanks. I did find a beautiful photo of Flaranje on HelpMeFind, and it appears to have nice form and coloring, though not the foliage I might have expected. They didn’t list its lineage however. They have Floranje as a 1985 breeding and Burghausen as a 1991 intro. (???)
Martin, thanks very much. I’ll look forward to getting that booklet.
In the meantime, if you would like to, it would be good if you could tell the people at HelpMeFind.com the parentages of the DvP releases (and maybe supply some pictures too, if you have them). This DvP collection is potentially very valuable for breeders. It would be nice if one of the nurseries here in the USA or Canada would undertake to carry all these in its catalog: the ones I’ve grown have been excellent.
Kim, I really enjoyed reading your “vignettes”. Everything about hybridizing is new for me and I have a ‘paradigm’ experience almost daily! ( I must have ‘Stanwell Perpetual’) Robyn
Can you confirm that Ville du Roeulx from RvS is a tetraploid rugosa cross?
Fedtchenkoana is a very peculiar rose. I wonder if linseed oil smelling roses such as Galaxy from Meilland came from it.
Making for a fun a search of Russian language web I found an anecdotal evidence of 20 year long hybridization programme with Fedtchenkoana. The principal breeder: Zinaida Klimenko from Nikitsky Botanical Garden at Crimea gave an interview to radio Svoboda/ Radio Free Europe in which she presented this programme as an example of perseverance needed in rose breeding.She mentioned a rose that came from this effort: Selena ( not sure if this a correct English transcription).
The 1995 Canadian Rose Annual has an article by Dr. I. Meneve, Research Station for Ornamental Plant Growing, Caritasstraat 21, B-9090-Melle, Belgium. It is titled “Breeding for Disease Resistance in Roses by Means of Rosa Rugosa and Rosa Fedtschenkoana.”
It discusses both Ville du Roeulx and Florange.
When the article came out, several (at least 3) amateur rose hybridizers that I knew ordered one or both. I ordered both. In my zone 5 northern Ohio garden Ville du Roeulx did not survive the first winter. In another garden in zone 6, it was reported to suffer a lot of winter damage due to an early spring warm period followed by a late freeze. That person later did report getting open pollinated seedlings.
I was not impressed with Florange. I do not remember if Florange finally died on me or if I “showel pruned” it to make room for another rose. I “think” that it did not set open pollinated hips for me, and I don’t think that I tried to use its pollen.
Philip, the photo of Floranje on HMF is not the best quality. The foliage of Floranje is dark green and very glossy. The strange years of the intro’s was the reason for requesting the parentage.
Ilya, Ville du Roeulx is tetraploid. This is also confirmed in the thesis of “Leus L. 2005.Resistance breeding for powdery mildew (Podosphaera pannosa) and black spot (Diplocarpon rosae) in Roses. PhD. Thesis, Faculty of Bioscience Engineering, Ghent University”. This document shows the results of the ploidy analysis by flow cytometry of the DvP-rose collection (about 250 hybrids and species).
The given parentage in the DvP publication “Rozeninzicht” for VdR is Melflor X Esperanza.
For Melflor (1982): tetraploide R. rugosa seedling X seedling.