How many species should we be working with

Rose Genetics Ploidy Level
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If genes worked only in a dominant fashion, bringing together as many species’ genes as possible would appear to be the best strategy for hybridizing. In reality, genes often work together as parts of a system, so mixing several species or distantly related species usually just breaks something in the seedlings. It seems to me, if someone wanted to get results, mixing only two or three fairly closely related species, with only an occasional outcross then backcross to something different, to bring in a new trait when needed, would be the better strategy.

For me, I have genes from chinensis, gigantea, multiflora, moschata, palustris, bracteata, wichuriana, rugosa, banksia, laxa, gallica, and a few unknowns. It’s probably way more than I need to make excellent plants. I sometimes think we overreacted to the horrible quality of the hybrid teas by trying to bring in every possible species. When all that was needed was to stop the chemical use, so we could make more intelligent culling decisions, and then focus on a few closely related species appropriate to our areas so as to fix the systems of genes plants use to defend themselves. Moderns are already well mixed, so focusing on moderns mixed with whichever species or 2 does well in your area of the world seems like the better strategy. Something like zones 3-6, rugosa x (rugosa x modern), zones 7-11 chinensis x (chinensis x modern). Enough of my rambling. Thoughts welcome.

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“When all that was needed was to stop the chemical use, so we could make more intelligent culling decisions”. Bravo Charles you hit the nail on the head.

Charles I use species as a means of developing some form of disease resistant new cultivar as well, but there are other interesting factors which can be achieved by using species. Some of these are petal texture, new colours and what I am really interested in is the creation of very unusual and unique perfumes. Some are easier than others, but you have to work around that and find a way in. I found those species which (Hurst) classified as the EE diploids and ployploids are the most difficult when trying to incorporating their genes into a modern genome.

3

Why not start with a first generation (rugosa type) X (chinenis type) cross such as Bonavista

http://www.rosebreeders.org/forum/search.php?keywords=bonavista&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

4

Henry its been around since 1964, with no offspring listed. Is it possible this hybrid is sterile.

Warren

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Charles you are still working with more than twice as I do …

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Kudos to you for taking on the work of taming wild species roses.

Moderns are already well mixed

Hmmm. I’m not sure what you mean by this.

What you can certainly say about most modern roses is that they are sources for the many genes that give us, well, modern roses. By these I mean refinements such as large and many substantive petals; dense expression and complex combinations of pigments; and remontancy.

It makes a lot of sense to start with modern roses in partnership with species cultivars. The hard part is deciding which traits from the species that you want to capture in the crosses.

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And figuring out ways to eliminate the bad habits of the moderns. Fortunately we have Pretty Lady. She’s fertile and makes marvelous babies for me here. She’s accepted both Hugonis and Fedtschenkoana pollen, but so far resisted Banksiae. I’ll keep trying that one as soon as I get another Pretty Lady.

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Warren, regarding whether Bonavista is sterile. My second link in my post is evidence that the Bonavista X OP plant that I had, and utilized, and sent out rose seeds from its offspring was not sterile. The early breeding experience by the original hybridizer is found on page 71 of the 1984 American Rose Annual. I tried to cut and paste the pertinent parts of that article but for some some reason the material would not copy. You can read it at this link:

She released four: Bonavista, Moncton, Elmira, and Sydney. From memory the only one I did not work with was Sydney X OP. (I never had the original plants, only open pollinated seeds from the first three.)

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Warren,
This group does seem to be more difficult than the others, even with the polyploids (e.g., Moyesii, Fargesii) which carry the E type. I have seen only one hybrid of R. macrophylla, ‘Auguste Roussel’. It repeats sparingly, and sets the occasional hip. I didn’t try germinating the seeds, so I don’t know whether they are viable. Perhaps a tetraploid version of this could be crossed with a “modern” tetraploid to get more rebloom.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pictures/A/augusteroussel.html

Years ago I thought about the possibility of crossing the tetraploid R. macrophyll var. Korolkowii with ‘Gloire de Dijon’ (AAAA), or something similar. I assume the Macrophylla chromosomes would pair, giving a plant similar to a hypothetical tetraploid of ‘Auguste Roussel’.

Hurst described R. fargesii Hort. as AAEE. Somehow, by the 1920s, this dark red tetraploid became confused with the pink-flowered hexaploid, R. moyesii var. rosea. The latter was a seedling of R. moyesii. The real Fargesii might be crossed with ‘Gloire de Dijon’, forcing the E set of chromosomes to find a way to cooperate with the spare A set. That is, a tetraploid AAAE could be more fertile than a diploid AE.

Hurst’s “septet scheme”, as he called it, was a “working hypothesis”. Some subsequent research suggests that the large groups of characters he observed may be connected to a single chromosome, rather than associated with genes scattered over the entire 7 chromosome set. In practice this would mean that with some continued breeding the problem of infertility could be reduced, and the E-traits would continue on as linked group inherited as a unit. This is what Austin (1993) found when breeding from ‘Conrad Ferdinand Meyer’, Rugosa-ness behaved as a unit character.

Some of the seedlings from this cross were of typical rugosa appearance, while others bore absolutely no resemblance to a Rugosa Rose. It seemed that some of our hybrids had taken the genes only from the ‘Gloire de Dijon’ half of ‘Conrad Ferdinand Meyer,’ while others had inherited those from the Rugosa side. What we had in many instances were in effect hybrids of ‘Gloire de Dijon.’

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/monosom.htm

I have not yet learned of any species or variety carrying the “E type” with a prolonged period of bloom. The other 4 groups of Hurst do offer prolonged bloom of some description:
AA: R. moschata, Teas and Chinas
BB: R. beggeriana (scattered late bloom) Hurst listed Beggeriana as DD, but noted that Cabulica (BB) was commonly labeled Beggeriana in gardens. Currently, Beggeriana and Cabulica are regarded as synonyms. It would be interesting to see the plant Hurst knew as R. beggeriana.
CC: R. rugosa
DD: R. foliolosa (long bloom period, rather than repeating or everblooming)

Vilmorin (1906) reported that his hybrid of Rugosa and Foliolosa bloomed from July to frost, which suggests that a CCDD tetraploid from those two species could be a starting point for a distinct class of reblooming roses.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/Wright/Wright_foliolosa.htm

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I noticed last season that R. foliolosa had a very extended, and late, bloom period for a species rose.

Thanks for the note about crossing R. foliolosa with Rugosa types. I’m all over it.

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Karl K I am going to try something this year if they germinate, but first they have to germinate.

You know I was walking around the roses the other day and this cross came to me and I was kicking myself. My F1 and F2 R. virginiana’s, I should have pollinated them with Nevada, I think it would have produced a very hardy offspring. Now I have to wait until Spring.

Warren

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Warren, have you gotten any offspring from Nevada? It’s been my impression that Nevada is sterile.

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I have this one which I recently registered . Its a Charles Austin X Nevada , grows to around 100cm high, very thorny and citrus perfume. I do have a more recent cross growing among the others and some germinating right now. As a seed parent its not to flash, but as a pollinator its ok.
mermaid of Zennor 2.jpg
Mermaid of Zennor 3.jpg

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Tens of years ago I gathered a dozen Nevada OP hips on a large plant at Bagatelle Rose Garden. Each with a single seed. None germinated

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But it does work from using the pollen.

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The Rugosa rebloom is compatible with the China/Tea rebloom, suggesting they are of the same character. It might be interesting to cross R. foliolosa with a China or Tea. Maybe a Boursault-type climber might result, with prolonged bloom.

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Warren,

Really like your Charles Austin X Nevada cross. Well done.

Rob

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Thank you Rob.