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I have had very poor to none germination with Carefree Sunshine and Commander Gillette. I usually keep mine in the fridge until at least one germinates then take them out. If I would take them out before any germination I would alternate in and out of the fridge to imitate Spring. Maybe 12 hours in and 12 hours out. Would like to see if anyone else has had problems with these two or is it just me. Depending on where you live you could if possibile plant them outside but here in the South it would already be too hot probably. There are so many ways to do this and none are wrong. Someone could do this for 100 years and still be trying to get it RIGHT.
Patrick
I agree with Patrick.
Also, germination seems dependent on the genetics involved and, Iām guessing, even weather conditions present during the maturation phase.
Iāve noted Iām getting quicker germination since I began warm stratifying seed before chilling. In the past I was able to go 8 weeks before seeing significant germination. This year I already had quite a few germinating at that point. Iāve generally always chilled for about 8 weeks.
It makes sense to think hardy roses would require longer chilling but this isnāt always the case.
If āCommander Gilletteā is the same as what I had here as āBasyeās Legacyā, you are wasting your time using it as seed parent. You will get germination but seedlings will be weak. Most never prosper. Itās best for pollen.
āCarefree Sunshineā is easy both ways but many seedlings will be prone to mildew. Growth habit of āCarefree Sunshineā isnāt the greatest in my opinion. It is nicely vigorous. I only kept it one season but had plenty of descendants. I used it mostly for seed.
This is the first year I used Commander Gillette either way so I didn
Robert
I just wanted to add that I get much better germination when I warm stratify for 8 weeks. In the past I used 4 weeks and didnāt get very good results. But when I switched to 8 weeks the germination rate increased significantly. I even get germination of some seeds without any cold treament doing that.
Thanks Paul.
āCarefree Sunshineā, did not mildew here but most of itās descendants do, or did.
With Carefree Sunshine for pollen Iāve had from 25-60 % germ. With New Dawn or Silver Moon toward the lower end, Carefree Beauty a little higher as seed parent. Some complex hybrids toward the higher end. Some variation year to year but 4-5 month cold treatment until germ.I think some results from last year were posted in the last RHA newsletter.
Hips kept falling off C.S. despite comments it is a good seed parent. Maybe my taste in pollen is a problem. This summer I found a ton of OP hips on a C.S. growing in a yard around town. At frost time (Oct) I harvested them. so far one germ.
I think thereās good evidence that temps during later development affect germ %, especially for spp hybrids. A classic paper by Von Abrams and Hand shows this is true at least in Scappoose OR. (nr Portland). Overall dev temps important was shown in Europe too, by de Vries and Dubois.
Larry,
That is a good article in the winter newsletter. It has just the type of data I was looking for. I don
One paper by Stewart and Semeniuk compared different periods of cool stratification vs continuous. There was about 60 days lag but in the end the continuous gave higher germ %. that was for 5 spp. but not complex mixes like HTs and their kin. They generally need less cold than the spp (except subtropical ones).
For later germinating seedlings I donāt always attempt to put them out for the 1st winter. Iām fortunate to have an area of crawl space under one room, where it stays reasonably cool (50 or so). Iād prefer about 10 degrees lower. Probably youād find that the case in your climate if you have such an area. Or use the old MN tip- bury like potatoes under a couple ft of stuff. Plant out in permanent places next yr.
Because I mostly want repeat bloomers Iām pitching a lot of seedlings early and even the best are not all that big by autumn. So half or so typically are lost to frost heaving, or too deep burial in leaves. But the really good ones based on first flower are usually treated to the special location for their 1st winter.
Paul, 13-14 weeks sounds plenty long. The range I try to get is 6-10 weeks. I like to plant before there are too many germinations. I planted after 6 weeks of cold stratification this year and only had a handful of crosses showing any germination. They all germinated as well as usual. Some seed parents characteristically germinate early, while others germinate later. I like that though because it gives me more time to evaluate seedlings. If they all germinated and flowered at the same time I would make more mistakes than what I already do!
Jim Sproul
Thanks Jim,
As Julie Overom pointed out to me the other day, we had a unusually cool summer here last year and I
Paul, as was mentioned above, roses probably have a very wide variation of needs for germination. Some probably need no cold stratification, while others may need many weeks, and might still have better germination after a year! I think that we all need to shoot for what has worked best in our own situation (local climate and varieties used in breeding being important considerations).
The greenhouse is not heated. Seeds were planted around January 1st. Temps are variable. Last week we had frost on the roof and grass, and this week we are in the upper 70ās. I agree with others that cooler fluctuating temperatures are probably best. Warmer night time temps may inhibit germination. There may also be variability with light. I know that we get some new germinations in the early fall while the day time temps are still quite warm, but the night time temps are cooler. Germinations are nil here during the hot summer months.
Jim Sproul
Iām feeling more optimistic now, there were two of the Commander Gillette x Morden Centennial seeds that started to germinate in the fridge last night. And there were one CG x MC and one Carefree Sunshine x (Easy Going x Suzanne) seeds that started to germinate at 50f last night. So thatās two each for the two different methods of treatment.
Patrick wrote
I have had very poor to none germination with Carefree Sunshine and Commander Gillette.
Iām scratching my head right now over failed Commander Gillette (and also Sweet Chariot) germinations.
Two weeks ago I extracted 85 embryos of each of these along with batches of other OP seeds including Floradora, Carlinās Rhythm, Soeur Therese and a few others. Not a single embryo of either Commander Gillette or Sweet Chariot germinated. The embryos looked ok on extraction but quickly started to disintegrate and grow microbes, a clear indication that they were dead from the start.
The hips from which the seeds were taken had been stored refrigerated since fall. They were perfectly ripe when they were refrigerated, and well ripened but not rotted when the seeds were extracted about a month ago. The seeds looked good and they were stored alongside the rest of my seeds back in the fridge.
This is the first time Iāve gotten skunked with embryo culture. Iāve had success with hundreds of other batches of seeds, and I got plenty of germinations out of the other OP seeds from that group so it appears that there was some problem specific to these two cultivars.
An earlier batch of Sweet Chariot OP from a different source also gave similar results, although I did get two seedlings out of that batch.
Don, I hope to be collecting seed from Sweet Chariot crosses in a few months time. I was originally going to just stratify and sow, but I might embryo culture and let you know how Sweet Chariot behaves, if this interests you.
Don,
Since that post I have gotten (5) Commander Gillette seeds to germinate. (3) with Morden Centennial and (2) with (William Booth x Applejack) as pollen parents. This is out of 377 total Commander Gillette seeds. Not a very good germination rate, but Iām hoping for more. So I guess there is some hope Commander Gillette as a seed parent. Next year if I use it it will be as a pollen parent.
was originally going to just stratify and sow, but I might embryo culture and let you know how Sweet Chariot behaves, if this interests you.
Thanks, George, but if I were you Iād do whatever works best to get your seeds germinated and not risk embryo culture unless thatās your preferred method. Moving your breeding program along should be your first priority.
Since that post I have gotten (5) Commander Gillette seeds to germinate.
Hope springs eternal!
ok Don. 
Paul,
Next year if I use it it will be as a pollen parent.
When I was unexpectedly gifted with OP seeds from Commander Gillette I started poking around to plan a use for them. It turned out there was a real good reason to want to survey them. This quote is from Dr. Basye:
āSelfed seedlings of 65-626 are generally thornless with smooth midribs. Rarely a thorn will appear. But roughly half will have a few fine bristles low on the canes, close to the base of the plant. This is clearly a throwback to R. carolina, which has a generous supply of these base bristles. To prevent the frequent reappearance of these latent (recessive?) bristles in later crossings, I would suggest several recessive selflings of 65-526. This was one of my oversights as an amateur.ā
The strategy of introgression should work just as well with deliberate selflings of your hybrids if any of them are nearly thornless.
Paul
Just as an example three days ago I got my first seed from Joycie x Carefree Sunshine to germinate. Today I got another one coming up. It has been planted since last spring. I forgot who I received the seed from (hopefully I can find it because I do not know where I wrote it down). I was actually checking seeds from R. rubinosa that is planted in the same flat. These I expected to take more than one year. Instead I got a happy surprise. I have it in my records some where.
I am also getting a second germination from Sequoia Ruby x Guinee OP from Paul Barden. Which is nice because the first group got massive amounts of PM and hopefully some of these are better. I am still waiting on Dragonās Blood and R. nutkana seeds to come up from last year.
I beginning to think seeds that come in the mail are forced into a secondary dormancy. Thankfully I am doing more and more of my own crosses.