I read that Ralph S.Moore used to hold onto seedlings for up to 7 years to see if they would germinate. How long do you cling to hope and have you heard of any other famous rosarians doing similar lengths of time?
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If you mean germination wait, l read the European Rose Hybridizing FB group post on stratification time to germination and Ralph Moore experience (reply by B Weeks on her R glauca work was very interesting as were others).
And very applicable to my short experience file that it can at be more than one brief and sometimes multiple years of stratifications / burial before germination - may depend strongly on rose type, F/M parents versus natural location of dominate parent type (according to speculation and inputs).
They aren’t wrong in my limited experience for my hardy to very hardy crosses (some have one tender parent in crosses). Have now two batches tried, one nearly two years ( one fridge winter below zero C and one natural winter).
After second winter stratification / soul burial in garden, hardy seed parents germinated. Except for spinossissima cross all were semi hardy very hardy ops.
Second set duds going through second natural winter.
So as to your for your question yes l am up to two cycles over two years for same seed in growing media.
See many more 1st stratification duds in my future and now view planting duds in garden for a second natural stratification as planting winter wheat crop for spring.
Don’t know personally any famous commercial hybridizers though did meet Peter Beales and score an autograph on his last book.
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I had asked Mr. Moore once what he felt about holding on to seeds past the first season and he said would hold on to unusual things for longer periods but he generally didn’t hold seeds from “usual crosses” more than one season. He stated many times he observed that those which germinated the first season tended to be more of the repeat flowering types he was after. Those which germinated the second and later seasons tended to be more once flowering types. He was primarily interested in dwarf, bushy, continuous flowering roses and felt those were most likely to come from faster germinating seeds. I have held on to very few seeds after the first season and never found anything sufficiently interesting to me to retain very long. The longest I have ever retained a seedling which hadn’t flowered was seven years. When it finally flowered, it wasn’t worth the water nor room so it became “mulch”.
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I wonder if anybody can recommend long term storage conditions for those ungerminated seeds? Right now, my germination rate for 2022 crosses has slowed dramatically, and if 2021 is a guide, I will see no more new seedlings this season. Last year, I threw out all remaining seeds after about July.
If I do want to store, under what conditions should I do so? Should I keep them continually moist and at room temperature? (I would think mold would take a pretty heavy toll) Or is it OK to re-dry them, and refrigerate? Or something else? Is re-stratification a good idea? When?
I often see discussion about how long to keep them, but rarely any specifics concerning actual conditions…thanks.
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In 2021, the President de Seze rose berries were left on the bush during the winter of 2021-2022. In early February 2022, after being brought in from the field, they were sown immediately and germinated very quickly, the seedlings being very strong. Stratification took place over two winters on the bush. During the winter there are frosts of 15 degrees or more.
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Interesting thread.
Does anyone have a small area in the garden where they throw their ungerminated seeds? Where you could maybe find some surprise seedlings once in a while?
Anyone had nice surprises this way?
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With the seeds that took two years to germinate: I took them out of the cold storage when my other seeds were done germinating for the year (usually early May).
I kept them at room temperature for a while (a couple of months maybe). I keep them in moist paper towels, so I just changed them to a new towel if it stared to mold. I then put it back in cold storage where they remained until they started germinating in late winter, about the same time as all of that years seeds.
I haven’t done this with many, just a few species crosses, but it worked well.
Duane
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Might be time to formally consider adding annotates or addendum(s) to the status quo formal stratification and germination derived method “handbook option” on RHA site.
Caveat option, since no formal science vetted belief in it, as an alternative such as all else fails try this but “YMMV for stubborn, cold to very cold zone rose crosses /seeds”.
“Climate of Species Origin Optional Methods” aka last resort options, to get germinations after first stratification and germinations period over - very green method.
Wish l had been stumbled across options of “Time and Temperature and Stratification Cycles” 10 years sooner as a hand book.
Praise for the tin can of seeds in a snow bank in zone 3 in mid 20th century, and Wisely tests, to get rid of don’t freeze mind set for ice rose bushes seeds in my mind.
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Thanks, everyone. Right now, all my 2022 crosses were refrigerator stratified 8 weeks in Nov and Dec, and subsequently stored at a variable ca. 45 - 65F in my attached but unheated garage. The first 4~5 weeks after removal from the refrigerator had about 30-40% germination, and has slowed since to now none for about three weeks.
I suppose my plan for the ungerminated remainder will be to keep seeds moist at room temperature until the fall, and then re-stratify with my 2023 crosses, rinse and repeat. Would anybody advise against that approach?
I would agree to this plan as I do it in the same way. Nevertheless, it is advisable to carry out a brief check every 8 weeks, as spontaneous germination may occur, in my experience especially in July and August.Of course, the probability also depends on the type of crossing.
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Agree and good luck. Worked for me and continue with multiple batching with ice rose seeds.
Your’s l believe are warmer variety. Should work or odds in your favour.
My 1st stratification of 2022 season harvest l am mind battling Darth Germinator (Arnie character role relative) as ice rose seeds were below 0C. Went in for second 2-4C strat.
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I never saved seed trays after the first year. Occasionally a few seeds would germinate in October, once the weather had cooled down. But I always dumped out the trays by December to ready them for the next year.
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Just as a pleasant update to this post: I kept my 2022 crosses that did not germinate back in the spring of 2023 semi-moist and at room temperature until ca. Nov. 1, when I placed them into the refrigerator to re-stratify along with my 2023 crosses. I didn’t really have a lot of hope, but I’ve pulled a couple of seedlings out in the last few weeks. We’ll see if they are worth anything…
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Good to hear.
l ended up cycling 5 times last year, from room ambient down to 2-4C. Dumped seeds after 5th cycle at end of May 2023. No germinations occurred until 2nd cycle - 1st cycle and longest produced nothing.
Still managed to get two prize crosses to germinate in 5th cycle. They are still healthy Jan 1 2024 in the winter grow room after summer outside. They were Merveille x Porsliini Kaunotar and Merveille x Bill Reid.
A 4th cycle produced a number of germinations of R nutkana and Schoener’s Nutkana with mix pollen. These have been unhealthy (pm). They may limp into second spring in grow room after being brought in from outside - survivors will be planted O/S permanently to fend for themselves.
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Are we allowed to see progress of these special roses?
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Sure, l will post some pics of mine as l went through too long of learning process experience to get germinations. Might help and motivate.
They will be balanced and of “The Good, the Bad and the just Plain, But Ugly” from 2022 germinated crosses and OPs.
Potted and brought indoors in September after first summer outside.
Be later this week, as today l pull out 2023 crosses’ and OP seeds from 4-5 months of just below -0C (3months) and then 2-4C. Will be starting the ambient.
Do OP’s to see what types might be good germinators as seed parent - screening worked (or fluked it) big time for iding one candidate - a gallica.
Don’t expect lush green fully leafed west coast North American own roots, vogued, commercialized photo beauties. But beauties to moi … yukyuk.
Happy New Year
Riku
strong textUpdate Jan2 2024strong text
As per request, the no lip gloss vogue of, the good, the bad and the plain, but ugly. Almost look like summer roses in blackspot country.
They are the 2023 cross germinations. Spent summer outside, dug up potted and brought back in, in September.
The tall ones in vintage room ones are my attempts at crossing for a “hardy” once blooming “purple rambler - climber”. Got the promising height in under a year from germination.
And fungus gnats rampant this year even with change out of soil … feed with B-1 Thrive.
Most been pounded indoors by PM and by spider mites but will recover.
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I probably keep baggies of seeds longer than I should. After they start germinating in the cooler their first cycle I bring them home in the basement and leave them near the walk out glass door where it is cooler (maybe 60F). I continue to check the baggies weekly. Sometimes when germination slows I’ll bring them back to the cooler and out again. After the end of the season and it seems like germination has stopped, I put them back in the cooler. They may be a bit on the dry side by then… I’ll check them later in the summer and fall and add a bit more moisture and then there can be a little more germination. After that I typically toss them, but actually now I have some baggies still from a couple years ago. Most crosses don’t provide too much more germination (I also like to do warm strat before cold strat and I think that helps some crosses germinate more uniformly and maybe faster).
I left a few baggies of seed in the garage all summer and now with the cold (typically doesn’t get below freezing in the garage) there is a flush of germination in some of the baggies! I didn’t even add more water to these baggies. After all the work we do to make pollinations and have limited seed and germination rates of many crosses, it seems wise to try to give a few more seeds/seedlings a chance if we have the space to store them.
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David, may I ask for how long you return them to the cooler? That’s something I’ve considered when germinations wind down, but I really have no idea how long it would take to “fool” them with a second abbreviated stratification. That was partly the reason I allowed an full extra year for these seedlings, the other part is that I don’t want to be transplanting outdoors too late in the season, or in the hottest part of summer.
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l used for cycles 2 through 5, 2 weeks at 2 to 4C and two weeks ambient ~ 18 to 20 deg C.
Measured as soil / media temp / control (heat mats and enclosed chambers). l found two weeks at ambient was it for new germinations for each cycle.
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Hi Lee and RikuHelin,
That is great to know your cycling RikuHelin and that the 2 week ~room temp is a good timeframe to trigger and see the new germinating seedlings. I wish I kept better track… If I have too many germinations to keep up with I leave them in longer (probably close to a month) before pulling them back out. I was inspired years ago by George Mander’s method, but I haven’t tried it. He would have his seeds go up and down in temp relatively frequently and felt like fluctuating temps triggered germination better than constant temps. I forgot exactly, but I think maybe he had them in the cool for awhile before he started fluctuating the temps closer to when he wanted them to germinate.
It sounds like some seeds in some parts of the world are triggered this way, especially if they are close enough to the soil surface and the soil warms a bit during the day from the sun and cools at night. Anyways, he had an old refrigerator and would let it go down to just above freezing and then eventually unplug it. With the insulation it took awhile for it to go back up to room temp and he would plug it in and unplug the fridge repeatedly. I’m not sure how many times a week he’d do it. There are systems it sounds like where I read a person could put a temperature sensor in a fridge connected to an outlet where the refrigerator is plugged into. When the temperature gets hot enough the electricity gets switched on and the fridge cools things and then after it is cool enough the thermometer relays to shut off the electricity and then the temp slowly rises until the electricity is switched back on again. I wonder if it is hard on a fridge when turned on to always start at a warmer temp and go all the way down to a cold set point. Anyways, it sounds interesting and likely cheaper than an expensive laboratory grade growth chamber where temps can be programmed to cycle.
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