Historical 2nd Canadian Prairie Moss Born Today?

Roses for Hybridizing Cold Hardy Roses
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Pretty presumptive of me … what?

Never checked HMF, believe only Andre may have … giving Dr FLS a run for the crown of hardy progress??? … in hardy moss breeding? (to be proven)

It is real as in green and from the 3rd cycle out fridge for 7 days when noticed it - frozen solid treatment in 3 rd cold treatment. That took a long time. And was a prized hope it would germinate … a few more would be nice for insurance.

Whether looks like has moss will take a long time - if it survives. Not staying out for 1st winter.

Diploid (from tag note) R. laxa x French tetraploid red - purple blend moss, Madame de la Roche Lambert (1870?).

Moss pollen parent chewed to pieces by mice over winter but has sent a new cane.

Got lucky with cross germinating as hips survived hail wrath of Thor … or toughened up?

P.s. 4 more R. altaica and 4 carefree beauties from 3 rd cycle.

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That’s a very healthy-looking seedling, so congratulations on the first (of many?) germinations from a promising cross. It’s not very hairy at this stage, which might bode ill for hopes of mossing, but you never know… fingers and toes crossed! I wonder if Paul or Kim would have any insights to offer about the relationship between seedling morphology and “mossiness” at maturity.

Stefan

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Hi Stefan,

Thanks for input, much appreciated. My hope is it exhibits some mossiness down the road so as to confirm they crossed.

My Mdl R-L was not very mossy and Marechal Davoust (sic) even less as mature plants img. Latter crosses’ hips Thor’d during summer.

Also crossed (a lot and both ways) Mdl R-L with local lore guidance with what is believed to be a tetraploid R laxa.

Also did reverse cross with diploid, but no germinations so far.

It is (they/are) also my first cross with laxa so as a bare minimum return l am satisfied with “1” germination.

I copied Skinner’s moss path (laxa) but found no mention of moss parent he used.

So R laxa, rugosa and fedtschenkoniana are three bone hardy species/ near species that have worked for me - who knows might fluke a garden worthy true hardy down the road … with tinges of purple blend. Though red rambler remains prime goal.

This latter self imposed directive is re activated for this summer’s crossings because of this spring’s result of 6 feet of unprotected surviving Lykkefund cane from last year season. Just have to id red potentials to beef up hardiness - may have to go “rugosa” and screw up thornless trait of Lykkefund if successfully crossed.

Also l can cross it with Canadian hybridized new multiflora rose l acquired from Cornhill this spring named Lavender Bouquet. There is published - maybe a spiritual belief, it may make it in zone 4A. Should be an easier cross with Lykkefund.

Though the yellow color of Helenae hybrida appeals more but it is starting over again as with every year - so out of my program.

Should mentioned I am a believer Lykkefund does have bourbon in it as Zeffy was one of the more winter robust bourbons with protection in my early days, until it also packed it in.

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I don’t know, ‘Zephirine Drouhin’ was not a very hardy Bourbon when I was growing them back in Minnesota… I would give the nod to ‘Louise Odier’ over Zeffy. I still can’t see any influence from that class in ‘Lykkefund’ no matter how long I stare at it, but I agree that there is something special in there. It needs another generation of crossing to eliminate the cane borer issues here, which conveniently can also give rise to everblooming seedlings. If I were in your shoes, I would put S45 pollen on it and try germinating the seed without the freezing method, which probably won’t work very well with ‘Lykkefund’. It germinates well for me using normal refrigerated stratification.

Stefan

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Yes Louise Odier was another l grew and the last to say goodbye. Zeffy just happen to be planted back in the day 2’ from lykkefund’s spot, so l remember it as was beside steps going ti house.

Was surprise my MIP lasted as long as it did - but l am talking fractions of time compared to in zone roses’ life … most 2-3 winters with covering for me. That made annual cost and physical expense unsustainable vs miserable bloom density payback. Let old man winter claim them and all my tenders. Took weeks to protect and remove.

I am rusty on bourbons (20 years ago) but thought Zeffy was thornless as is lykkefund but Helenae is not? It also hardier than Helenae and Zeffy this winter, if l got 6 foot of cane. … whether Zeffy or something else not fussed about it.

Thanks for the suggestion. If it blooms l will split the cane into crossing sections and Christmas tree it with candidates. Worked well with Merveille even with wags as to compatibility.

Got new lenses prescription so shouldn’t loose my mind pollenating the “small flowers”, mosquitos another issue with polstjarnan size flowers. Might experiment with cheap fly fishing magnifying glasses.

Edit May 3rd

Should add as the discussion about a bourbon and traditional OGRs brings back nostalgia (missed). It was the bourbons and portlands that were my favourites from that time.

The only out of zone OGRs remaining and occasionally blooming in the gardens 20 years later and unprotected are Duchess of Portland, Marechel Davoust, Empress Josephine, Agatha (only true hardy as l call it, but no hips), and Blush Hip. Don’t believe rugosas make OGR cut.

You can pretty safely assume l tested nearly every class/type/ cultivar that the great Pickering offered. Even teas, chinas and their hybrids. And even Sd’Or, in a low pressure disease zone, grew well for a couple years until a humid period … and then demonstrated it is typhoid Mary - Marty.

Geezz they even offered a good selection of species from around the world.

A Dutch Canadian entrepreneurial operation in south Ontario that didn’t survive its creator.

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I miss the heck out of Pickering and its reliably interesting and diverse selection of extremely good-quality grafted roses on RMV-free rootstock. There hasn’t been any other company that entirely fills that void, and maybe there never will be.

Foolishly, I tried to get ‘Soleil d’Or’ to grow both in MN (from Pickering–it failed so spectacularly from blackspot, I wonder how they managed to grow it in Ontario!) and here. I had a little success for a while by keeping an own-root plant indoors under lights, which lasted until spider mites got out of control, and it didn’t react very well to spraying. I never got anything to set using the pollen that I collected, but I suppose that any offspring would have been very blackspot prone as well. After I got that out of my system (mostly), I resolved to just work with modern descendants that don’t have all of those liabilities (or at least can be kept alive a little longer for breeding than SdO).

Bourbons and Portlands were always favorites of mine, too. Cultural issues aside, many make ideal garden roses in terms of habit, form, fragrance, repeat, etc. It has always seemed strange to me that Hybrid Perpetuals displaced them. Few do well here (blackspot) and those that are a bit better are often on the fringe for the class, like ‘Souvenir de la Malmaison’. I’ve come to realize that it is possible to get similar OGR charm and character using much more modern varieties that have better health as building blocks.

There truly are no consistent sources for interesting species roses these days; you just have to hunt and peck and hope to find a few here, a few there. Many species are simply unavailable now (in the U.S., anyway.) I’m not sure how many species thrive in this area anyway, but it’s always informative and sometimes useful to try new species germplasm.

All of this talk reminds me, if you wanted to try to complete your hardier neo-Damask hybrid, maybe ‘Lykkefund’ would be a good sub for the missing R. moschata fraction of the Damask species trifecta. If that R. fedtschenkoana-gallica cross of yours blooms this spring, you could even have a chance at making it happen this year! Luckily, the flowers of ‘Lykkefund’ are a lot bigger and infinitely easier to work with than is the case with ‘Polstjarnan’. I completely agree with you, that thing was the worst rose I ever tried to cross with because of the ridiculously small flowers (which refused all pollen I tried anyway, and seemed to have no pollen themselves). The wicked thorns didn’t help, either. (Hmm, ‘Polstjarnan’ x ‘Lykkefund’, maybe?)

I know a longtime breeder of tiny, fiddly flowered plants who swears by wearable magnifying glasses to make crosses on much smaller flowers than any rose. I’ve never tried it myself, but it is tempting.

Stefan

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I will be very interested to follow as you track your progress with this seedling!
I have one plant that I am keeping an eye on in a test bed that was from Cape Diamond.
I had put pollen from Berenger (moss rose from High Country Roses) on it and got one decent growing seedling.
Cape Diamond can’t be said to have mossing, but seems to have a little more bristly than normal.
This rose finally bloomed and has a good bit more than its seed parent. Not as much as Berenger, but enough to definitely appear mossed. It smells strongly of pine when touched. I will see as it fills out and blooms this summer. Only once blooming its first round, so not surprised if that continues.
I’m going to test its pollen to see if viable.
I have a seedling from William Lobb that is purple with good mossing and should have a gene for repeat: which proved to set seed that germinates. So perhaps I will try its pollen on that one this season.
We definetly need more that will help in bringing in the cold hardiness!
Duane

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Hi Duane,

Good to hear from you, and still at it and in hardy hybridization and deeper into it !!

Congratulations on the success of a hardy moss cross. Good encouraging news. Good thing you’re below the 49th so my joking false bravado line is still valid … yukyuk

Sounds interesting with modern Cape Diamond parent (Explorer descendent?).

I selected R laxa because Dr Skinner / Dr Zelesky path seems promising for true hardy with stature.

Unfortunately my 4th try Skinner moss (wright before is wrong due to age) try and donated robust plant also gone (not even a surface trace - must of been good snack) due to rodents just like Madam de la Roche Lambert (but latter seems to be coming back but no bloom return for years).

Be scouring cornhill and other countries to see if can import more types - though pickering experience taught the classics a miss for my climate except for Davoust (but real low mossing). Hence need true hardy for one parent - both germinations have hardy seed parents like yours. My reverses did not materialize or the tetra laxa crosses.

Thankfully one seedling showed up on diploid laxa and another on a rugosa hybrid.

Laxa x moss one looks still good, but rugosa ones’ giving me bad vibes.

It looks to be developing the structure of my failed nutkana x prairie peace / hazeldean crosses - we will see in long run. Wire stem and leaves cluster only at tip . Fortunately the 7 didn’t make it through winter.

Again congratulations and good luck, especially with Lobb - good Cornish name plantman and moss color.

Addendum:

A local rosarian to my city has mentioned to me in the past there is an “Old Red Moss” that grows randomly in Alberta. In even the alley ways. May not have to go out of country - the lady gave me the Skinners moss l lost to rodents. Need to avoid the topic for a while.

*Addendum 2:

Just noticed High Country ships “potted” to Canada (that’s got to be expensive to bring dirt over the border).

Going to inquire - got to make decision well before by May 13/14 …

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Just so you know, I’ve read reviews that said Berenger was unexpectedly hardy for a moss rose: seems like it was someone in Montana? (very cold there). It has been fully hardy here, as opposed to William Lobb, which dies back in coldest winters.
Duane

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A few notes from my past experiences.

  • All crosses I made using R. nutkana X anything modern/remontant were badly Blackspot prone. I gave up working with R. nutkana because of these results.
  • Crosses made using R. foliolosa were often excellent. Plants had unique fern-like foliage with excellent disease resistance (often totally Blackspot-proof) and many were repeat bloomers, which was unexpected. One of the standout seedlings was 107-09-10, a cross of a self-seedling of Moore’s 0-47-19 and R. foliolosa. I am still occasionally using it for crosses and expect to work with it this year.
  • Crosses made between various modern Mosses with Svejda’s L-83 gave me many heavily mossed seedlings with excellent disease resistance. It was unexpected to get really mossy seedlings from L-83, but noteworthy. See ‘Carol Whitten’.
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Nutkana hybrids are also highly prone to rust. If that isn’t an issue in your climate, great, but where it is, Nutkana will guaranty it.

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Thanks for the input Paul very useful.

1I put the combo nutkana x hardy on the back burner for now as all seedings germinated were “not normal”. And most of my hardy pollen contributors are spinossissma. Btw both R nutkana and Schoneors are true hardy (15 years plus) for me so itching for success in transferring it’s pleasing bush and size / form to a hardy.

2 Margit gave me a R. foliolosa 10 years back and for some reason it did not make it through its first winter.

3 L83 has been an extremely successful winter hardy rose for 4 or 5 years (approaching if not, true hardy) and surprised me due to my checkered winter experience with Svejda’s non rugosa explorers.

Never thought of using it for moss until your relayed experience with it. On the batting list roster now. Have been using it with futility on other ogrs such as trying it with agatha type pollens - no hits.

I may try the nutkanas with it. L83’s bush form needs an experimental tweak to test.

Again thanks for the relay of your experience with hardy parents and moss success, appreciated.

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Hi Roseek

I would claim that “rust” is not a dominating issue in my garden. However as usual, there are exceptions.

Had it bad on ogrs a couple years ago the pale orange - brown smear type. And occasionally find random leaves on some non ogrs with brilliant orange “bubbles”. And occasionally see them on cotoneaster. Assuming these leaf “bubbles” rust.

Not seen it on the nutkanas.

My problem l assume, was an incompatibility with spino pollen blend l used.

Black spot is also not an issue in my garden (fall PM is when the cold evening moist air storms down from the mountains).

Except for the convergences to the “perfect storm” episode … humid damp summer meets my SdO that was healthy until then.

Pulled a year later. And most bizarre thing l noted (probably imagination) was halo of moderns around it that were also effected.

As usual thanks for your experience.

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L83 doesn’t have any “bush form”! LOL It’s a homely shrub at best. But when bred with almost ANY other rose, that ugliness disappears.
This is one such result: 77-07-12

I did some work with ‘Schoener’s Nutkana’ many years ago and got nothing worth keeping. It is extremely Blackspot prone here and eventually died from disease pressure.

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Though my reaction may seem understated, its not, its the nordic part … “wow”, form and color a real big league eye pleaser … falls into “must get there” … and its likely hardy.

There must be a bio-tool solution somewhere to propagation issue. “? germ plasma?”, or what ever they call it and used on itohs and molly the witch … probably why my ones not cheap to acquire … though found Molly self seeded and bloomed by the time the mother original passed on from “ wilt “ conditions (too damp l read).

Best of luck skill and work on getting an answer.

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