germination exceeding expectations: your experience?

General Discussion
1

Have you ever had a year where the germination rates of your seed have grossly exceeded your expectations, based on previous years? I made 4000 pollinations last year and many crosses appear to have germinated at near 100%. I don’t dare imagine how many seedlings that is so far, but let me just say that I have potted up about 2700 so far and I’m not half way done.

Have any of the rest of you experienced such dramatic germination rates that exceed your expectations? Nothing I did was a big change over last year, except that I planted 3 weeks earlier (Feb 7th) than previous years.

Paul

2

Obviously you helped many old ladies across the street, etc.

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I would certainly think you are on to something. What are the details like? ie same kind of containers for seeds, longer/shorter prep, layering of soils, flirtation with hormones whatever the cause enjoy the multitude.

It would be interesting to duplicate your procedure at another location and see if increased germination occured since the seeds themselves would not seem to be the reason. I have a nice little gas meter room with a wall length work table to one side of the room. The temp stays at 51-55 throughout the summer since we use central air.

4

Hello Paul,

I’ve noted the “germination patterns” vary greatly, according to the seed’s rose class.

Wich was/were your seeds?

My biggest surprises,as far as unexpected rates are concerned, is with some triploids : up to 10%!

Best wishes,

Pierre.

5

I think the tag says Crepsucle by Sheri Anne (minus spelling details).

6

Hi Paul,

I’ve experienced the same thing only not to the extent you have in that photo. That’s positively obscene! Sherry Anne x Crepescule huh?, that Sheri Anne, she gets around!!

Sometimes I get very good germination from certain seed parents and other times I don’t. I haven’t noticed any rhyme or reason to it, yet. Last season I got the best results from sowing seed in August which to me was a great surprise. We are VERY hot in August but the seed germinated as our weather cooled and then made very good progress through the Winter.

Btw, I got very good germination form the foliolosa hips you sent. I only got one wee seedling from the arkansana hips though. I’m watching it and hoping I don’t lose it. Thanks again, Robert

7

Yes, that’s ‘Sheri Anne’ X ‘Crepuscule’ in that tray…the whole tray. Sadly I can only afford the space to pot up about 150 of them and the rest will get tossed out. :frowning: That tray is only one of 12 trays of seeds, and many of the other trays have germinated that thick , or even more!

Pierre, I say that germination this year exceeded my expectations, and what I mean by that is that it has exceeded previous experience with the same parents in previous years. For example, using ‘Sequoia Ruby’ as a seed parent has resulted in about 15% germination in the past two years, but this year it was near 100% for all crosses made on it. I suspect I have over 1200 seedlings from various ‘Sequoia Ruby’ crosses alone!

My harvest/storage technique is this: I collect hips when they show color, starting in late September and usually finishing by early November. Last Fall I picked everything by the end of October because we anticipated some 12F nights. For some varieties this was maybe 3 weeks earlier than usual. Not much of a difference, I should think. Hips were then bagged and placed in the fridge, seeds still in the hips. I cleaned the seeds from the hips as I had time, which took me through mid December to finish. Seeds were placed in sandwich bags with damp paper towel, and a plastic tag was written up and stapled to the bag for identification (This saves me the step of making a tag again in the Spring at sowing time: all I have to do is rip it off the plastic bag) No fungicides of any sort were used in the bags…I have found that some mold forming on the seeds isn’t a problem as long as it doesn’t get excessive. I suspect it may enhance germination, in fact, by digesting some of the seed coat.

Seeds stay in the fridge until mid February or so, and are sown in a light potting mix made of composted fir bark fines and other organic materials. (I’ll have to find the bag to give you the brand name) Seeds are sown in rows and labeled, covered with about 1/4 inch of potting mix. The trays are set out in an unheated greenhouse in a home-made wire mesh cage (to exclude mice, which have devastated some trays in previous years). If temps are to go below 32F, the cage is covered with a blanket. It rarely goes below 30 here at that time of year, so I rarely have to worry. No heat is used to assist germination: I believe that germination is enhanced by the natural daily temperature fluctuations.

That’s about it. Nothing elaborate or unusual in my method. In fact, it’s geared towards being as lazy as possible! (Note of course that there is nothing inherently lazy about making 4000 pollinations and sowing and transplanting the resulting seedlings!)

The link is a view of the rest of the seed trays. Several of the trays have already had some crosses harvested for potting up, so thats what some of the empty rows are.

Robert, I’m glad you got good germination from the R. foliolosa! I got a reasonable number of seedlings from my cross of R. foliolosa X ‘Little Chief’!

Regards,

Paul

Link: www.rdrop.com/~paul/temp/seedtray2.jpg

8

Thanks Paul,

Could the early harvest have caused a hormonal immaturity? What PH is the mix in the bag you are looking for? Was there a change in the water for cleaning or spraying or soaking? Did you store them differently? enough to cause a daily shocking change in temps? Was the mold on the seeds from an unusal source?

I hope you don’t mind the questions. Perhaps some review in your procedure, enough to jar your memory, will unlock a specific difference and the questions I ask would not be the ones you are asking yourself because I sure would like to increase my germinations as, I think, most hybridizers would.

I used to use composted fir stuff when I was a kid growing African Violets. It was difficult to find but nothing worked as well. Did you switch brands? When I couldn’t find it, I used to buy the quasi peat type wood that sinks to the bottom of the tank at aquarium shops and grind it in our meat grinder(so not your average kid). It was the acidic ph that made it valuable as well as its oxygen retaining ability which I used with distilled water. The results were always amazing.

Sorry, you have to toss so many. The poetic thought of abundance hangs in the air even as the plants must become trivial.

Geo.

9

George asked:

Could the early harvest have caused a hormonal immaturity?

***Possibly, but somehow I doubt it, as at least 1/2 of the crosses were harvested at the usual time. The others were picked no more than 2 or 3 weeks early.

What PH is the mix in the bag you are looking for?

***Neutral as far as I remember.

Was there a change in the water for cleaning or spraying or soaking?

***Nope, it was the same old well water as usual.

Did you store them differently?

***No change in how I stored them from the previous 3 years

enough to cause a daily shocking change in temps?

***I don’t believe so, no.

Was the mold on the seeds from an unusal source?

***Not as far as I can tell. What usually happens is that some bags get very moldy (white and blue molds) and some bags do not mold at all…it is a totally random phenomenon as far as I can see.

I used to use composted fir stuff when I was a kid growing African Violets. It was difficult to find but nothing worked as well. Did you switch brands?

***Yes, this was a different brand of soil mix. However, I don’t think it is radically different from the stuff I used in years past (I bought whatever was available, usualy using something different each year, or using several brands in the same year) I doubt the soil mix was the reason, as I have excess seeds still in the fridge that I did not have room to plant, and many of these crosses have germinated in the bags at near 100% as well. Perhaps some of these could be mailed safely if someone wanted them?

One thing I didn’t mention earlier is that I use a dilute solution of H2O2 to water the flats with as a damping off preventative. I have done this for the past two years now and find it to be 100% effective if you do it about every second or third watering.

Regards,

Paul

10

What ratio is your solution?

One thing I didn’t mention earlier is that I use a dilute

solution of H2O2 to water the flats with as a damping off

preventative. I have done this for the past two years now

and find it to be 100% effective if you do it about every

second or third watering.

Thanks,

Chris Mauchline

11

Chris,

I am pretty careless about how I mix the H2O2…I just pour a few “glugs” of H2O2 into a gallon jug and fill with water…but I think the principle is something like 1 part Hydrogen peroxide to 19 parts water. Isn’t that what Henry originally suggested? Henry?

Paul

12

"1 part Hydrogen peroxide to 19 parts water. Isn’t that what Henry originally suggested? Henry? "

Yes, but I did not attempt to find an optimized ratio. That ratio worked for me. I use it each time that I water including the original watering until the seedlings are past the damping off period. A disadvantage is that the H2O2 may “bleach” labels made with marking ink pens and wooden popsical sticks.

13

What about plastic markers with grease pen? That’s what I use for all my plant seedlings.

14

Interesting. Last year I had one seed parent by a certain pollen parent give me 97% germination. That same seed parent by a different pollen parent gave me only about 5% germination. (Pollen and seed parents were of my own creation, not on the market.)

15

“What about plastic markers with grease pen?”

I would expect that a plastic marker would be O.K. since it would not absorb and “wick” the solution to the writing.