Hello all,
I have a bunch of seedlings that have germinated, but have died with what I originally thought was damping off. They die towards the top of the seedlings where new growth should be happening, but has stopped just as it began to appear. I began to check the cross and all were from the same cross (First Impression x Abigail Adams). First Impression is a probable tetrapliod and Abigail Adams is a known diploid. This is happening at about a three to one ratio. Is this something genitic causing this or damping off? None of my other seedlings are doing this?
I also have a seedling that has germinated, and the cotyedons are getting bigger and bigger, but no other growth has started. I’m assuming that this never will grow, and I am wasting valuable bench space keeping her alive?
Andy
Hi Andy,
I always thought damping off occurred at the “soil” line, not at the top of a seedling but I am not a trained botanist.
Jim
Interesting!
In regards to the cotyledons-only seedling, that happens quite a bit and I don’t think it will ever be able to push out true leaves…I think the genes just don’t line up.
I don’t have any insight on the damping off, though. Genetic incompatibility makes perfect sense for the seedlings that have only cotyledons, but why would they kick the bucket after the first set of true leaves? Classic damping off occurs near the soil surface. Maybe Jim Sproul has a Terminator gene that he hasn’t told us about. 
How has First Impression done for you? I have a couple on order. Sounds like a cool cross. I wonder about Abigail up here in Zone 3…it says in the Ashdown description on HMF that it was hardy to the tips in Zone 4.
If your seedling with the lack of central growth tissue is an important cross, maybe consider to give it a little more time…crazy as it sounds I have had one such seedling actually start to sprout leaves from a central point that had no sign whatsoever of growth for several weeks (not even a hint of a “raised bump” of tissue)… once the growth point emerged (from a totally bare and flat surface), the seedling grew fast and never looked back…it stunned me. If it makes any difference it was some sort of hulthemia hybrid culled due to it not flowering in the first few months of growth.
o_O
Damping off occurs at the soil line and rarely affects seedlings that have grown beyond the “one true leaf” stage. I used to treat flats with Benomyl years ago to prevent this, but I found something that works far better and I rarely lose a seedling to damping off now. Wanna know what I use?
Perlite.
Yup, just Perlite. (please don’t spell it “pearlite”! lol) Ralph Moore showed me how, and I have used this for years now. Plant your seeds, just barely covering them with planting mix. (I leave the seeds slightly exposed, actually) Then finish the planting with a layer of 1/4" of medium grade Perlite, then water. It is far more effective than Benomyl ever was, and far more effective than H2O2 drenches (which used up absurd volumes of Hydrogen peroxide, I might add: I bought at least 8 large bottles to get me through damping off season the one year I tried it!) I was skeptical when Ralph first described the technique to me, but he was right on the money, as he usually was.
As to why your seedlings croaked, its hard to say. I would be looking for environmental/disease factors before placing blame on bad genetics. Are you absolutely sure that some other pathogen hasn’t claimed them? I’m wondering about Downy Mildew…It can be uncharacteristically discreet when seedlings are concerned…
Careful, Paul! You’ll become the target of all the major chemical companies. None of them can make a dime on perlite!
They also could just be ’ weaklings’ that are more susceptible to whatever is in the air-while not genetically incompatible they may be genetically weak. I have a number of those that usually get culled but if they are showing growth below the point at which they died for various reasons I might give them a second chance.
They sound like the ones I often dump simply because they don’t form good root systems, hence are weak and destined to die anyway.
After having so many seedlings die over the years to damping off using various mixes, and reading about the use of perlite, I planted my seeds in styrofoam cups in pure perlite and still lost a goodly number to damping off. I often had them enclosed in baggies to simulate a mini greenhouse. Could that be where I went wrong??? That is why I have only worked with OP seeds since I still don’t have my germination of seedlings down pat. They germinate but then I lose them to damping off.
All help is appreciated LOL!!!
Jim P
That sounds reasonable, Jim! DON’T enclose them in plastic bags! I don’t even require that here where it is often arid. I plant mine in secure tables outdoors in potting soil and water them with the hose. I can’t use perlite in the tables outdoors here because the wind WILL blow it away, even in the tables. They don’t need that kind of humidity to germinate. Ralph and Paul succeeded using that level of perlite because they both had/have greenhouses. If you were trying to germinate them in your livingroom, you might need the baggie. Otherwise, keeping them enclosed like that would rot them out very easily. That’s similar to the issues I have here trying to root cuttings. Enclosing them in anything guarantees failure.
Thanks for the tips Kim. Actually this was in Virginia in an unheated glass enclosed sun room which faced East. I had the seelings by themselves on wire shelves in an east facing window which got the morning sun though the room could get quite hot as the season progressed if I didn’t crack a window.
I had other plants in the room which were in pots overwintering (amaryllis, small fig trees, a gardenia which I had rooted) so it could be the room air was filled with fungi from the other potted plants which were in rotted leaves and soil. They were semi dormant and I only watered enough to keep them alive.
Jim
Under those conditions, might it have been possible you cooked them with direct sun hitting the closed bags? “Steamed sprouts”!
No Kim,
The tops were fine but there was that little tell tale brown-wet look at the “perlite” line and shortly after they keeled over though the leaves on the tops were fine for a day or so. Definitely damping off but maybe the baggie kept them too wet.
Jim
That sounds very plausible, Jim. Bingo! Something you can probably cure without any chemicals, loss of baggie and addition of a bit more perlite. Congratulations!
When I started germinating roses 100% outdoors, damp off was reduced to zero. I do use a thin layer of perlite, and either seedling beds framed in brick/mortar or huge storage bins with drainage.
For the last two or three years we’ve been getting our commercial germination mix (Berger BM2) with some sort of natural fungicide…it might be Actinovate, but I thought it was something with copper or iron…I can’t remember or find the details right now.
Previously we treated all of our germination mix with Cleary’s fungicide, but since we’ve gotten the maybe-Actinovate in there we haven’t had to use fungicide and we’ve had basically no damp off growing all sorts of annuals and vegetables. I haven’t had a problem with my rose seedlings, either.
If I can find out for sure whether it’s Actinovate I’ll post again. Actinovate is a bio-fungicide; only bacteria, I think. It might be worth a shot.
Joe,
First Impression was first brought to my attention by one of our local consulting rosarians. She doesn’t (and won’t) spray anything. She told me it was extremely healthy in her garden. I bought a rooted cutting at our district convention last March. I found First Impression’s disease resistance to be well above average, but not entirely disease-free in my garden on the Rhode Island/Massachusetts border. I tried pollen on her just because she was there at the time. I had no expectations good or bad on actually getting anything to take. I have her in a container, and having used her to set seeds all summer probably skewed her true garden potential.
I have a number of seedlings from First Impression x Everblooming Pillar 124. These are doing ectremely well, and I hope both roses pass along their disease-resistance to the seedlings, and I get something in-between the two.
I’d be curious as well to see how Abgail Adams does for you in zone 3. She is by no means going to win any awards for her form, but has great disease-resistance here (and she repeats well). I can send you cuttings if you would like?
Paul,
The chance of downey mildew (or some other naturally-occuring pathogen) is something I hadn’t thought of. They are in a drafty east window, and the possibility does exist that they were susceptible. The fact that the seedlings were just weak is also possible.
Jim,
Kim got me to stop making little “greenhouses” a few years ago while germinating my seeds. My germination rate has gone up tremendously since I have stopped doing it. I will also attest that seeds crossed by me have an equal chance of germinating as open-pollinated seeds. By all means, do not be shy about making your own crosses. This is what this hobby is all about. If you wait to plant seeds from your own crosses until you figure out what method of seed germination works, you will have lost a lot of time and experience in the process. This year, I have germinated more seeds from of my crosses growing than open-pollenated ones.
Andy
Hi Andy,
It sounds to me like an incompatibility. I have not used ‘First Impression’ as a seed parent, but have used it a lot as a pollen parent. It produces abundant and fertile pollen, and seems to pass on its relative cleanliness well.
Hi Joe,
You are too funny!
Hello all,
One of the ‘First Impression’ x ‘Abigail Adams Rose’ roses bloomed this morning. I thought this rose was worth sharing with everyone. Apparently, she didn’t get the “death gene.” I love the bi-coloring effect that is going on with this rose. My family also tells me that she is quite fragrant.
Andy
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Hi Andy,
Congratulations on that baby!
I especially love the almost lilac/yellow interplay in the bloom coloring.
May I ask in the lower picture…is that tan a true color representation?? …if it is I love it especially, and can visualise / imagine what those blooms might look like when the bush becomes more mature with time.
I wish we could get Jim Sproul’s First Impression here downunder, I would certainly be using it in my breeding…although having said that, at last we do have a few nice healthy modern yellows (with Baby Love in their lines) available to some of us here downunder…AT LAST !!!