Generating interest in roses

General Discussion
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1

The thread concerning the ARS and new trials was interesting. Part of that thread brought up a valid question of how to get Gen X and Y involved in roses.

Keep in mind that I’m relatively new to roses when I say this, but the number of rose in “commerce” is a little overwhelming to me. Alba, Chinas, miniatures and on and on. But when I go to my local nursery to buy breeding stock, or something a little different all I see are the same cookie cutter HT’s, climbers and a few floribundas. There isn’t that much that grabs my interest. But I look at the lists that I get e-mailed to me from some nurseries like Vintage, Euro, Heirloom, Rouge River etc, there is a multitude of selections. However, these are specialty nurseries.

So I think the answer to getting Gen X and Y involved in roses, whether through the ARS, RHA or whatever, seems to be getting local retail nurseries on board with getting additional varieties so the “younger” generations can see what’s available. But I’m not sure how that could/should be done. It has been brought up before that roses can be expensive to produce and the public needs to be educated to the value of roses. But the consumer may look at a band pot for $15, plus shipping, as very expensive compared to the $5 one gallon hosta at Home Depot. What’s the consumer going to choose given the rose availability, or lack of.

It seems there should be a way to get additional varieties to retail outlets at a reasonable cost and size that will attract new consumer-gardeners. I know some of you have been involved in the commercial nursery business, so maybe you could chime in with some ideas.

I’m wondering if the problem is with the retail outlets needing a little education, and not so much the consumer.

2

I am Gen-X. I turn 40 this year, the day before Christmas, but have a background in horticulture because my family have been nurserymen and market gardeners for generations. So I had the exposure early on. I’ve been breeding roses for nearly 10 years. That makes me a little different to the majority of Gen-x people. However, I am a teacher who has been teaching for almost 20 years and I work really hard long hours and I don’t have a lot of time to stop and smell the roses, so-to-speak. In fact I push myself so hard that I have been hospitalised three times this year through stress/burnout related illnesses and am still unwell because of it. This has never happened to me before. My view was I could do anything.

This very much makes me typical of a lot of Gen-X people (and future Gen-Y who just haven’t reached that point yet). Life in the fast lane leaves little time for roses… especially ones that need babying. If I can’t plant a rose that can fend for itself then it will die… either through natural attrition or deliberate shovel pruning. I am not going to waste my time pampering a rose that is a prima donna when I could plant one that can look after itself and still look good so that when I do get time to stop and smell the roses it makes an impact and I get more bang for my buck so to speak. Mr Moore knew this and devoted his life to breeding roses that were easy to propagate and were compatible with a contemporary lifestyle.

I don’t want to join a rose society to discuss how I’m going to grow the perfect bloom. I DO want to talk to others with similar interests in an online environment so I can get outside and work on my 3 acres rose garden instead of going to some meeting where we would discuss the annual budget and pass motions to do this and that… I mean this IS the crux of the problem.

Price is not the issue. If I could buy a rose that will live for a long time, will propagate by cutting and grow on its own roots and not be some chemical junkie then I will (and have) pay up to $50 a plant… the return over time means I get more than my money’s worth from it. I can buy native plants that have nice flowers that attract native animals to my gardens that I can plant and forget… almost… I need to maintain them a little but I don’t need to do much more than plant them, mulch them and keep them in shape. Roses need to compete with this.

The problem is more systemic than just educating outlets and consumers and I think it will get worse before it gets better. At the moment, here in Australia and I assume everywhere else in the world, roses are being mass produced and pumnped onto the market by big chains who don’t know roses and who don’t care about roses. The smaller outlets who love the rose have been consumed by the corporate giants and knoweldge and sound advice has been the casualty. They only want to stock stuff that they can get rid of. If it dies then that’s ok cos people will be back to buy something else to replace it. Whilst these kinds of pressures are acting on the market there is NO hope. All we can do, as breeders, is to not keep feeding this market. Make things that that are robust and have landscape potential. Forget about this pointless obsession with perfect flower form and concentrate on the overall effect. Gardens are getting smaller because our lives won’t allow us to budget our time to include looking after anything else. It’s only stress-junkies like myself that go out and buy acres of land and work 40-50 hour weeks, have three children and still think they can be a super human that refuse to let go of the utopian view of living a simpler life (pfftttt).

These big corporate giants need to run their course before the specialty rose outlet can again make a reappearance and the only way it can happen is if breeders give them something new and better to sell, IMHO. Jackson and Perkins may be the first of the big scalps to fall because of this. You can’t just keep stirring the same pot and hope no-one will notice. Life is different now and it’s either keep up or disappear.

Gets down off the soap box now.

3

Simon:

No need to get off the soap box. I just see a lot of frustration with some of the junk that is on the market. I think that the RHA forum is a good place to gets ideas to try and fix a major problem within the roses industry.

I’m fairly new to this subject and I’m trying to figure it out, if that’s possible. I think that if things keep going the way they are lots of great work will be lost.

Jeff

4

Trouble free nice roses one can grow as easily as most other flowering shrubs.

5

Agreed, Pierre, but in the US market, this has been the exception and not the norm. I feel that Europe has been a little ahead of the curve on promoting such. Until recent history, the AARS has had biases towards high-maintenance exhibition roses, to the detriment of normal (and younger) gardeners.

In the deep South of the USA, some niche marketers started getting noticed over a dozen years ago by promoting the old tried-and-true antiques such as chinas and teas, as roses one could actually grow without a lot of fuss. In principal at least, there should be modern roses with even better resistance and garden-worthiness. (I became familiar with “Carefree Beauty” as a “found” presumed antique known as “Katy Road Pink” (though the cynic in me feels sure the sellers must have soon recognized it for what it was, but didn’t want to pay royalties.))

Look at the success of Carefree’s offspring “Knockout”. It probably wouldn’t have made it so big were it not for the initial bump it got from the AARS. THey kind of got it right… But on this one cultivar. And I’m getting kind of tired of seeing it bedded-out at every retail center in the south, and every home garden. (And yet it seems to command a premium at most garden centers! Hasn’t it’s patent expired yet?)

When I look at the sheer number of trials in Europe, each having numerous categories, and different levels of awards (gold, silver, etc.) I am somewhat envious, and feel that just by virtue of quantity, your trials have more meaning – even if each individual one may have its own politics and biases.

In the USA, the marketing leads the market demand. It is not so much honest evaluation, IMHO, that drives demand. The downside of this is that to many, the rose is an impractical plant, best left as a cut flower to purchase at the store and keep in a vase. Never mind that a bouquet can cost more than a bush. Merchandizers make more money on short-lived commodities anyway.

6

“Look at the success of Carefree’s offspring “Knockout”. It probably wouldn’t have made it so big were it not for the initial bump it got from the AARS. THey kind of got it right…”

Definitely true in my case. I purchased KO at the end of '99, right before 2000 from J&P, of all places. The tag says PPAF. It had just won or was going to win AARS- and it had everything I was looking for in a rose at the time. I wanted singles that would produce hips (it was advertised as producing hips NOT as being a triploid). BTW I don’t believe I’ve seen another single offered from that place since (well maybe Betty Boop but it’s a semi-Dbl). It wasn’t until I had ‘success’ with roses like rugosa, Robin Hood, & KO that I became more interested in rose breeding. I can even appreciate doubles now (although some still look too artificial for me to get too excited about).

Personally; from the very beginning, I want roses that will perform as landscape plants without much care or fuss. The last century concentrated on flower form and remontancy, etc without regard to garden performance. That’s starting to change.

7

Heirlooms didnt specifically concentrate on health but they did concentrate on both foreign and romance, which was a far cry from typical Americana. They definitely have their hand on the pulse of the Baby Boomers. They grabbed my heart by making Harkness a main stay there. Their modern roses are an excellent fit to Western OR/WA because the climate is so similar. Their roses would also probably grow really well in Japan.

So even our perception of what a rose is and what it can do is shifting. However, one of or biggest obstacles is the general publics concept of what a rose is. The start of this concept usually begins with Valentine’s Day and the florist. Leonidas and Red Intutition are about as different as it gets but they are still formal HT types. When I had a visitor from my birth home of South Dakotaa few years back, she brought her 3 grandsons. I was letting them play through the garden. They were having a blast. They all stopped at Bukavu because it is huge and extremely vivid with its huge clusters of red and white single blooms. They exclaimed, “Whoaaa! What is that?!” I said, “A rose.” They said, “THATS NOT A ROSE!” haha cute. It looked more like an alien hydrangea to them, lol. Their grandma attempted to explain that it was like a prairie rose but they were not buying the idea that it was like the roses that grew in a ditch.

8

“I’m wondering if the problem is with the retail outlets needing a little education, and not so much the consumer.”

If the two most established nurseries in my area, whose owners I know well and have spoken with many time, are any indication, it is quite the opposite problem. The nurseries are fully aware of the full scope of variety in the rose continuum, and many have tried again and again to retail a broad range of roses, but they do not sell. One of the biggest of the nurseries near me has expressed that at this point, they can’t even sell David Austins to their customers because what people come in to buy are cookie cutter HTs and very little else. Every year they include a few landscape varieties like the Medilands, and even a Rugosa like ‘Blanc Double de Coubert’ or perhaps ‘Hansa’, but that is only every couple of years. All these local people buying the same old roses, expecting to get 'em home and do little more than water 'em and have armloads of cut flowers just like the Florist sells…man, are they shocked when they find out the reality. Its the same problem over and over again, and the industry has led us to believe for over a century that this is what a rose looks like and anything else is not really a rose. I have heard it again and again from people I encounter. Its very disheartening, really. The Old School rose market has an enormous gravity that it is nearly impossible to escape.

When we can make people understand that in order to have truly healthy, effortless roses in their gardens, that they must make some aesthetic compromises; get the idea of The Perfect Florist Rose out of their head and choose to value other flowers styles instead. Give me a single bloom of ‘Hansa’ any day, with its mind-bending rich Clove influenced fragrance and beautiful deep magenta coloring. I’ll take that over a dozen blooms of insert name of any typical HT from the past fifty years here any day. Don’t get me wrong, I love some of the HTs I have grown, but I have totally soured on them as a group because of their dreadful flaws and fatal shortcomings. I walked through a local residential area a few hours ago and marveled at the Floribundas and HTs in people’s front yards: they were, almost without exception, the sickest looking, most unattractive contributors to that garden scene of any of the plants I saw. The Impatiens many folks used as companion plants looked far better and their overall aesthetic contribution to the garden was much greater than any of the roses I saw. This, my friends, is what we’re up against!

So, what to do? Well, to put it simply, if we are going to make roses look more attractive to a new generation of gardeners (in spite of what you may think, there are always children and teenagers and twenty-somethings discovering the pleasures of horticulture) then we need to build new roses that are more attractive plants. As others have said, roses will never compete with other shrubs and perennials (and some would argue, even Petunias; I have grown roses that sit and glare at my Petunias, wishing in vain that they could perform as effortlessly as the Petunias do) until they are as effortless to grow and produce a bounty of bloom to make the Petunias envious. Yes, thats quite a task, but I swear I’m going to try to get a few steps down that path, all things willing.

9

LOL!

Michael posted his message while I was typing mine, and touched on the same idea as I did: many folks have no idea there is something other than HTs out there. The iconic HT bloom form has embedded itself into our consciousness so deeply that it is a fight to imprint anything else. Ugh.

10

Hi,

I suspect that most people just don’t know what is available with roses. There are big roses (climbers and shrubs)little roses (mini’s and ground covers) and lots in between. Most only think of HT’s when they think of roses.

Some years ago, I was intending to ‘landscape’ my then house just with roses ('cause it was possible). Maybe that’s the sort of option to demo the possibilities.

Mr Moore ‘invented’ the mini’s and they have been popular (supposedly) for small gardens. It would still be possible to landscape a small garden just with mini’s. (Micro’s, mini-climbers, mini-HTs, groundcovers)

The popular garden shows on the box only show the conventional - maybe if they showed the others?

Just my thoughts

Rod

11

I agree with the idea that education is vital, and I really wish that local nurseries would do their share. “They don’t sell” is almost certainly a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I’d add that I finally managed to buy a Zepherine Drouhin for a relative, but I have no relatives under 50 who could ever use one, because most of them live in apartments, and/or are likely to move within a couple of years. If I give them a mini, they will kill it by treating it like a houseplant. The only roses that are broadly compatible with their lifestyles are 2’-3.5’ tall, disease and neglect resistant, and not too thorny, which can be happy and healthy in pots… largish “patio roses.” Maybe Eugene de Beauharnais, or Apricot Nectar. I think it unfortunate that there aren’t more roses which are good choices for this niche.

12

Dwarf rugosas are my choice in my temporary home away from home. They can take the cold, some neglect, look okay and be more tolerant of the really nasty evapotranspiration here (think: 360 degrees of wind that bounces off of random mountains and valleys).

Some of brighter newer Flower Carpets like Supreme, Coral, Amber and Scarlet could also do well in large patio pot culture on an apartment deck. I am sure there are others as well. For example, Gourmet Popcorn would do extremely well in the same scenario. Likewise, it does not need spraying.

The choices are limited for those in high density living but there are a few options that can remain aesthetic.

The only major drawback to patio pot gardens in high-density areas is a whole new scenario for both disease and pests. The air circulation is often poor, their are random vents filled with humidity everywhere and the environment acts differently upon the air depending on your sites’ location above the ground. These scenarios can create entirely new issues with mildew, blackspot and wind. Likewise because of the dense space, pests that finally do find your patio culture will likely not move on. This can create a scenario where getting rid of them can be troublesome. I personally had to resort to using systemics, which I avoid like the plague for many reasons. I at least can take relief that it is unlikely that ground water will not be tainted by it.

So, there are options out there. Theyre not optimal but they are doable and making living in small density space more enjoyable. I can tell you from experience that minifloras are not that great for this type of scenario. Its best to think of plants that will stay low, have some grace/flow to them, have good rebloom, be tolerant of heat/wind/cold/disease and be in colors that either “pop” or give subtle charm. Anything garish or eye-bleeding looks really awful in small spaces where people need to relax.

This scenario probably is a good spectrum to think of in the context of breeding because it likely has high marketability considering that this sort of living is not going to go away. Personally, I think it is an awful way to live but its at least nice to make those that do live in high density spaces comfortable and relaxed.

13

Question: When was the last time anyone saw an AD for a new rose on TV? Has anyone been on “Oprah” lately to introduce their new rose? Do you see any pop-up banners on your computer screen directing you to the hot “Rose” website?

Consumers will purchase anything (anyone out there own a “Snuggly”?) that they become educated about. Here in the USA, one sees ads on TV from the Milk industry, or from the Cheese industry, etc. The only group I can think of that does ANY kind of promotion of roses is the florist industry… and of course they continue to bang the drum for those long-stemmed odorless HTs for Valentines Day. And what do we see in our local grocery store florist coolers? Those same HTs. That’s all the public sees, so that is what the public knows. To them, that’s what a rose looks like.

Based on my own experiences walking Gen X and Y friends through my modest rose garden, they are profoundly interested to hear how roses are hybridized, and can’t believe a rose could smell of myrrh, or have an old rose appearance.

I think the general public is profoundly uneducated and/or mis-informed. Homeowners have gardens. Sonething has to be planted in them. Almost every yard in my neighborhood has those standard HTs growing in it. So the potential market is there. But most people I talk to think roses are “very hard to grow”.

Anyone reading this has, at some point in their life, become more aware, and then more educated about the subject of roses. And then what happened? You fell in love with them. Maybe even obsessed… LOL. The more reality one has about any subject or any product, the more more affinity one can have for it.

If the Rose industry spent some energy and bucks properly MARKETING roses, the new generations would get excited about them. Growing interesting and different varieties of roses just has to become the “cool” thing to do. And that comes from proper marketing.

14

I like the way you’re thinking Wendy! Good points!

15

Wendy, I will “second” that - 2 thumbs up for what you have said!

Education is a must. I think that we can capitalize on “green” too, with roses that are no fuss.

I have this strong belief that if we can market to and educate the public about cleaner roses that we could probably also highlight their potential food value. I know that sounds a bit strange, but if we could get some research to show that roses have a significant quantity of bioflavonoids and suggest a dietary benefit to using rose petals (unsprayed) in salads, it might catch on (it could be the rage at all the salad bars!) Since people are becoming more and more conscious about the environment and their own nutritional needs, it might be worth taking this kind of approach.

Jim Sproul

16

“but if we could get some research to show that roses have a significant quantity of bioflavonoids”

I was on the same trip this evening, but lamenting if phenols, anthocyanins, flavonols…have an impact on plant haelth. The trigger for this thought is the observation on one of my seedlings, which is very healthy, that not only the hips become red but also the leaves, take a closer look at bottom of the pic.

<img src=http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bPIebPZdU7s/TK9M64ERd9I/AAAAAAAAFWY/3_CizIL_MCM/s800/007.JPG

The pic shows the beginning fade away of chlorophyll and the content of anthocyanin is more visible or increasing?

There is also an interesting detail, regarding the small damage on the hip, either caused by insects or fungi or…

dunno if there any research has be done in case of this ?

red regards

Bernhard

17

Roses often damage themselves. Its kinda funny if youre into dark humor, lol. If it is Fall in this pic then I assume the anthos are becoming more visible because the chlorophyll is waning. However, some roses produce purple and red stems in the winter. I do not understand how this works. Maybe understand how that works would give a more clear picture. Since roses are often not used in research for whatever reasons, maybe there are other plants that exhibits these traits.

18

Wendy, thanks for saying again something I have said about the Knockout line of roses—the reason those are the best selling low maintenance rose right now, and not others, (maybe equal or better) is because Radler chooses to advertise. He is not only a very good hybridizer but also has very good marketing. This takes $$$, or an established backer. Flower Carpet (Tesselaar) also has made their own market.

On the subject of health benefits of roses, tons of info and research is out there. they are used for vitamins, skin lotions, antioxidants, etc. Just google almost any rose/health/research/benefits/vitamin combination and you will get more info than you might want to read. BUT-google any combination of rose/advertisement/sales/new info and you will come up with more information on Charlie Rose, and other totally unrelated to what is being done in rose advertising today. The attached is one of the first of many sources on the health benefits of roses.

  • They contain vitamins A, D, B complex, C, E and K. The rose hips of the dog rose are especially rich in vitamin C.

  • Citric acid, malic acid and ascorbic acid are present.

  • Bio flavonoid antioxidants include rutin.

  • Pectin, a soluble fiber, is found in rose hips.

  • Minerals include calcium, iron, silicon, selenium, natural sodium, magnesium, manganese, potassium, phosphorus and zinc.

Health Benefits of Rose Hip Tea

Rose Hip, used to make tea, has antibacterial, anti-viral, antioxidant, and anti-inflammatory properties. Therefore, rose hip tea is not only tasty and refreshing, but has a number of health benefits.

  • Rose hip tea is anti-aging, as it heals tissues and cells, while its antioxidant property fights cell damage due to free radicals. It also tones the organs and regenerates cells.

  • Phytochemicals prevent cancer and cardiac problems.

  • Rose hip tea acts as a tonic, invigorates and refreshes, and increases energy.

  • The nutrients in rose hip boost immunity and health. The vitamins ensure vitality and longevity, and prevent colds and viral infections.

  • The tea cleanses the respiratory tract and eases breathing by clearing mucous congestion.

  • It has anti-inflammatory properties, and is useful in minor ailments like urinary tract infections.

  • The tea has a calming effect, prevents stress and also acts as an anti-depressant.

In herbal lore, the rose is good for the skin; it also heals the skin, muscles and bones. In Chinese medicine, rose hip was used for kidney and urinary problems, while ayurveda (the traditional system of Indian medicine) uses it as a mental tonic. It is good for hormone regulation, skin hydration and circulation, and acts as a cleanser, astringent, antispasmodic and antiseptic. Therefore, a cup of this healthy brew has many benefits.

Read on

Sources:

Read more at Suite101: Health Benefits of Rose Hip Tea: A Rich Source of Nutrients with Preventive and Curative Properties http://www.suite101.com/content/health-benefits-of-rose-hip-tea-a188009#ixzz11t8onRtT

Link: www.suite101.com/content/health-benefits-of-rose-hip-tea-a188009

19

Jim Sproul wrote: "I know that sounds a bit strange, but if we could get some research to show that roses have a significant quantity of bioflavonoids and suggest a dietary benefit to using rose petals (unsprayed) in salads, it might catch on (it could be the rage at all the salad bars!)

Strange as you might think it sounds, I think you might really be onto something here. This past Spring (before bugs and drought kicked in) I made quite a few salads using the dark-red petals of ‘Home Run’ (about 25% of the bulk, the other 75% being store bought “baby field green” type salad mix)… a little blue-cheese dressing and some sunflower seeds and it was very tasty in addition to being very colorful. I thought that the rose petals, when tasted alone, were slightly astringent tasting but that didn’t stop my preschool-age sons from mooching bites. They actually even insisted on having the rose petals - “no Daddy, that red one!” The flavor certainly wasn’t as assertive as some of the chicories and rockets and mustards in those mixes! So it could be a good bulk ingredient, almost on par with the mild lettuces.

So… what you’ve got is a salad ingredient that you could plant once (and would be a pretty part of your landscape) and then harvest pretty much continuously, all-summer, every-summer… and is probably loaded with some of those buzzword nutraceuticals too… what more could someone ask for? I’m already considering making that ‘Home Run’ plant be a central element in a perennial salad bed.

I’ll bet there are other roses that would be just as good or even better, for this purpose. I chose ‘Home Run’ because I had it growing, but also because it’s dark-red, it’s healthy here without sprays and it cycles so fast that it’s almost always got a few blooms on it. On the down side, it’s only single-flowered, so it requires plucking from a lot more flowers than a double-flowered rose might require.

Tom

20

I believe awhile back it was Jon who mentioned Oklahoma tasted the sweetest; can’t remember if it were the hips or the blossoms, LOL.

JON, WE NEED YOUR INPUT!!! Thanks

Jim