The RHA newsletter should be arriving shortly. For lack of space Peter has asked me to post the references section for my article Fun With Color on the website. The article also contains an abbreviated version of my color chart for rose pigments. That chart is included here as well in order to provide the detail about how the colors were calculated.
Link: holeman.org/Dons%20Handy%20Rose%20Pigment%20Color%20Chart.pdf
G’Day Don,
It’s probably in the newsletter, but thought I’d ask anyway (could be some time before it lands down under). Where do those ‘black’ red/ ‘black’ purple colours come from (like in ‘Black Jade’, ‘Tuscanny Superb’, ‘Ebb Tide’, ‘Midnight Blue’, etc…
Hi Simon,
Where do those ‘black’ red/ ‘black’ purple colours come from (like in ‘Black Jade’, ‘Tuscanny Superb’, ‘Ebb Tide’, ‘Midnight Blue’, etc…
Those are all variations on a theme. The pigment is cyanin, and the variation comes from differences in pH and pigment density.
A couple of the references I provide will help you sort this out for yourself. See refs. 7a and 7b in the download.
When you get the newsletter, have a look at Figure 3. I have a few OP seedlings going from Vielchenblau, a rose that’s in this group. It’s amazing how intensly colored these seedlings are, even their roots.
Don, got the newsletter and wanted to congratulate you on a great article! Just downloaded the color pdf and can’t wait to get a look at it.
Speaking of intensely colored seedlings, I see the same thing in mine, but not seedlings of Veilchenblau, which I’ve never gotten to take. Instead, I get intensely dark seedlings (deep red stems and even leaf-veins, never looked at roots), of a local found Alba that has light pink to nearly white flowers, and gorgeous fall color.
-Fa
I can understand getting intensely coloured seedlings out of Veilchenblau when you look at plants like Violette that have come out of Veilchenblau. I have Veilchanblau and Violette and Violette is so intense compared with Veilchenblau. I was thinking of putting Violette with Rhapsody in Blue next year to try for some remontancy in this colour (and a healthier plant than R in B).
Simon, that is a very good idea. I hope you will pursue it.
Paul
Fara, thanks very much.
Here is a photo of some Harison’s Yellow seedlings, one of which has a red root. I’ve earmarked the pot and am going to be watching to see if the root color correlates with blossom or foliage color.
Don, I used to breed Asiatic lilies. Your picture brings back a memory: Many Asiatic lilies have very dark
found a pic of January Jewel 
Wow! I couldn
Don,
It is an excellent and very interesting article. Thank you.
I would assume cyanin is the red in R. glauca’s leafs as well, no? Don, I’ve wondered to what extent foliage pigments operate independantly of flower pigments (genetically, I mean). The best yellow flower, to my mind, would be offset by a dark leaf behind it. Ditto with white. It’s fun to see Harrison’s seedlings with cyanin in them. I hope that carries through as the plant matures, and I would be encouraged if the blooms had no red.
Too often deep, dark foliage comes with dark flowers and pale flowers with pale foliage in my limited experience, so one does not set the other off adequately. We talk much more about flower attributes than foliar attributes here.
Robert, thanks for your comments.
I would assume cyanin is the red in R. glauca’s leafs as well, no? Don, I’ve wondered to what extent foliage pigments operate independantly of flower pigments (genetically, I mean).
Philip, it’s probably a safe bet that at least some of the pigment in R. glauca’s leaves is cyanin but none of the research papers that I have read mention the analysis of leaf pigments or discuss the genetics, at least in depth. I suppose we could figure it out for ourselves if we had a way to measure the pigments. Have you got reflectance spectrometer in your pocket?
Phillip,
I have noticed a correlation with leave color and flower color in not only roses, but in other plants as well. I believe the genes that control flower color also control color in the rest of the plant, if not control at least influence. That