Have any of you had experience with any of these (seed or pollen)???
Cold Hardy for Reds: Cuthbert Grant, ramblin red, miracle on the hudson, campfire, hope for humanity
Cold Hardy Yellows or apricot: above and beyond, morden (blush or sunrise), Macy’s Pride
Or any other suggestions??? Especially if there are any that would work as seed parents, as that seems to be a shortage for me right now.
I am waiting (not so patiently) for seedlings to emerge, so I am considering a list of parents to order in preparation for the coming season.
Duane
Duanne,
Ramblin Red is fertile both directions. Other cold hardy reds Quadra and Illusion (5b). Both are fertile either direction. Miracle on the Hudson is fertile as well. Canadian Shield is a great red that is fertile.
Campfire (yellow) is fertile either direction. Rugelda (5b) fertile yellow.
I would question the zone 5b for Illusion and Rugelda. It wouldn’t surprise me if they were hardier than that.
Thanks Rob! I took a closer look at campfire; i thought it was a red and yellow blend, but looks like the edge is pink on yellow. Still might be useful for yellow, mixed with golden celebration or graham thomas or rugelda to make it a bit more hardy. thanks again. I’ll keep my eye out for quadra or canadian shield also.
Duane
Cuthbert Grant: poor disease resistance here, coarse habit. Haven’t tried using it but it seems like it would be fertile.
Ramblin’ Red: As Rob mentioned, it is fertile. I don’t presume it would have great disease resistance, but I haven’t had it for years.
Miracle on the Hudson: A lovely rose with good disease resistance and crown hardiness. My potted plant sets fat hips with seeds that germinate.
Campfire: I’ve only used it as a pollen parent. Passes on good flower power. Poor disease resistance. Good hardiness. I’m tempted to use it more.
Hope for Humanity: I read on this forum that seedlings of Hope for Humanity are hopelessly poor. So I haven’t used it.
Morden Sunrise: please don’t
Morden Blush: such poor disease resistance that I no longer use it. But it was one of my first plants to hybridize with.
Above and Beyond: Usually used as a pollen parent, although I got some good hips on a potted plant last season. Only passes on reblooming about 1 in 6 times when crossed with a bloomer. A good way to add hardiness and disease resistance, in my opinion, if sufficient numbers are grown to weed out nonremontant seedlings.
Yellow Brick Road isn’t particularly hardy or extraordinarily disease resistant, but sets great hips with seeds that germinate.
‘Morden Centennial’ (pink) - In my opinion the best of the Parkland series of roses for breeding purposes. Very fertile as a pistillate parent and the seeds germinate easily. It produces seedlings having very attractive flowers of excellent form when combined with the Explorer ‘John Davis’, for example. Selfed seedlings can also have very attractive flowers.
‘Canadian Shield’ (red) - It lacks fertility as a pistillate parent but with the right staminate parent it produces relatively small hips containing seeds. No experience of its seed germination yet. Looking forward to trying it with ‘Campfire’ (producing bi-coloured progeny?) as I believe Rob has previously mentioned he intends to do.
‘High Voltage’ (yellow) - Joe’s remarks regarding ‘Yellow Brick Road’ also pertain to this cultivar. Selfed seedlings can have very double, light yellow flowers.
‘Olds College’ (light orange) - It’s difficult to obtain but likely has very good potential to produce yellow progeny, since it has many yellow cultivars in its pedigree. Attractive, disease resistant shrub having good hardiness for a semi-hardy rose when grown on the Canadian Prairies (Zone 2 - 3).
‘Rugelda’ (yellow) - l like it as a staminate parent to produce seedlings having attractive foliage. Perhaps has potential to produce progeny having non-fading, yellow flowers (red streak in flowers).
Thanks for the input… gives me a lot to consider!
I was wondering how much is realistic to expect to increase cold hardiness: for instance, a bush crown hardy to zone 5 (borderline zone 4) but dies back to the ground crossed with a zone 3 rose? Is it really variable in the seedlings? What about after the first generation? What approach to take if planning for another generation? Any thoughts that could help give direction and realistic expectations with this?
Great questions Duane. I’d like to know the answers myself.
By the way, if any of you cold climate breeders are in the area of Fargo or Grand Forks ND during the summer you should come and visit me in Fertile, MN. There is a lot to observe here for a rose breeder and I’m starved for showing off my roses to someone who understands what I’m trying to do. (It is a universal law of nature that everyone likes to show off their plants.)
Duane, it get’s really complex when you start trying to work in once-blooming hardy species with only-crown-hardy rebloomers. Another thought is that if a rose is called Zone 3 there remains a wide range of possible hardiness for that rose, from barely surviving to tip-hardy. Generally I assume that hardiness of a seedling will be somewhere in the middle between that of the parents. Just how much variation there is from seedling to seedling perhaps depends on the cross, and I don’t have good info on that. The quest to combine heavy rebloom with cane hardiness is difficult, but one of my overarching goals.
It’s hard to believe that All the Rage has Morden Centennial as a parent. Has anyone tried with ATR? It seems like a borderline hardy but healthy rose here. By the way, it sets fabulous hips. I have two plants of ATR x Above & Beyond that show potential though are not likely releasable.
Sometimes I feel like I should work more with the Canadian roses such as Morden Centennial, Morden Blush, and Campfire, despite their awful disease susceptibility here. They combine a good deal of hardiness with strong bloom power. - Joe
I wish I lived up in that area Joe. I’d love to stop by to check out your work.
I’m looking at Morden Centennial again to use as a parent. Maybe I can overlook the susceptibility and pair it with very healthy breeders that I have.
Trying again, I keep typing and posting and it disappears: I think the Gremlins are in my computer!
Joe: I wish I could walk through your garden with you and hear how you have made your progress step by step and look at your roses. It would require driving rather than flying to the midwest some time, maybe someday.
I wish there was a more accurate (detailed) way to give hardiness: there is a lot of variability between crown hard and tip hardy, not to mention everything in between. Someone had recorded the spring condition of various roses they had on here (something like “spring observations”) and that was helpful, as there place is colder than mine.
Speaking of cold, Joe, Fargo competes with somewhere in eastern Montana for coldest place on the map all winter, in the lower 48 anyway. Looks like you have some serious conditions you are breeding for.
I would be happy to get flowers like we love on a plant that is cane hardy, so that it is filled with blooms in the early summer, preferably with a repeat in late summer. The only ones we have like that are a handful of Rugosa hybrids and William Baffin and Party Hardy. I must admit Hansa and Theresa Bugnet make a splendid sight in early summer by the entrance to the garden! Maybe I need to look into more Canadian varieties also.
Duane
Duane,
Have you tried some of the hardier Radler roses?
Morning Magic
Cancan
Bright Eyes
Do you have Above & Beyond? It’d be interesting to see how much it dies back for you there. (to 10" or so here I think, usually)
Example of Zone 5 rose cultivar crossed with Zone 3 one.
‘Canadian Shield’ (‘My Hero’ x ‘Frontenac’)
Since I don’t have personal experience with it, I have to speculate somewhat as to the cold hardiness zone of ‘My Hero’, but I’m thinking it’s likely Zone 5 and borderline cold hardy to Zone 4.
‘Frontenac’ has very good cold hardiness to Zone 3, but it usually winter kills somewhat.
The point is that ‘Canadian Shield’ is intermediate in cold hardiness to its two parents, one tender and the other having good cold hardiness in a Zone 3 climate. ‘Canadian Shield’ is semi-hardy in a Zone 3 climate.
‘Canadian Shield’, of course, is an outstanding red rose for growing in a Zone 3 climate.
‘Frontenac’ has a very good track record as a staminate rose for breeding semi-hardy roses for growing in a Zone 3 climate. It’s also the staminate parent of the very beautiful and floriferous ‘Campfire’. It should be used much more in this respect, especially crossing with Parkland and Buck rose cultivars.
Did I mention that ‘Frontenac’, and therefore ‘Canadian Shield’ and ‘Campfire’ wouldn’t exist without the previous efforts of the highly esteemed Canadian Prairie amateur rose breeder, the late Robert Simonet of Edmonton, Alberta? As far as that goes, most of the Explorer Rosa kordesii cultivars wouldn’t either because of his development of the ‘Red Dawn’ x ‘Suzanne’ selection.
Thanks for the info! Above and Beyond is one I was seriously considering, so it may have to go at the top of the list.
I am growing many roses listed for zn 5 and some for zn 4: I manage to keep most alive (although there have been some losses),
but it takes them so long to grow back in summer a lot of the season is lost and they have far fewer blooms on them. Would like to focus on fixing
that problem first.
We are very blessed for the work put in by all those who have gone before us! ‘Red Dawn’ x ‘Suzanne’ sounds like it has had a profound impact in breeding cold hardy roses.
It’s interesting to me to note that Étoile de Hollande, a parent of Red Dawn and a relatively tender HT, factors into this line of hardy roses. Is this a case of “pot stirring” in which the tenderness of EdH fell by the wayside while maintaining other aspects of hybrid tea-ness? Red Dawn is, in fact, listed on HMF as actually being a zone hardier than its other parent New Dawn…
So, I guess what I’m saying is, huh?
Paul are Olds College and Chinook Sunrise same recent rose introduction? Former in garden, latter thinking about - l believe latter available at Cornhill for export (l believe)
Sorry answered my own question, Olds College I call a full bloom form based on habit in my garden, while Chinook Sunrise is spec’d as semi double … Olds College (nice college just up the road from me) is definitely semi hardy in 3a-4a.
Philip,
Letter from Robert Simonet to Percy Wright September 2/1952.
“It (‘Red Dawn’) has the same growth as New Dawn and is probably no hardier but has not been tested.”
‘Red Dawn’ appears to be a shrub rather than a Climber like ‘New Dawn’.
John Wallace and Frank Skinner (Canadian nurserymen) were enthusiastic about the cold hardiness of ‘Red Dawn’, but their experience with it was very limited and it’s likely they didn’t test it against other HT cultivars.
By the way, I have ‘Red Dawn’ growing in Victoria, B.C. I’m making sure I don’t lose this rose cultivar, since there are only a few in existence. Hope to cross it with ‘Hazeldean’ this year.
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I was shocked at the hardiness of Red Dawn and vigorous regrowth of Red Dawn this season. It was, however, quite stingy in blooming later in the summer…it basically didn’t. I look forward to using it more, both in crosses with heavy bloomers and in trying to recreate Red Dawn x Suzanne with something healthier like R. carolina.
It would be interesting to see what percentage of rebloomers Red Dawn gives when crossed with heavy modern rebloomers…RKO, Morden Blush, etc.
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