Has ‘Euphrates’ ('Euphrates' Rose) been ruled out as infertile? I’ve just ordered one of these for my garden (I’ve never seen ‘Tigris’ available here). In the archives there is mention of the term ‘allotetraploid’ with reference to ‘Euphrates’. Can someone explain what this is?
Euphratus is indeed steril. Jim sproul can tell more about this subject. He uses the fertile specie in his program. Forgot the name lol.
Euphratus is indeed steril. Jim sproul can tell more about this subject. He uses the fertile specie in his program. Forgot the name lol.
Euphratus is indeed steril. Jim sproul can tell more about this subject. He uses the fertile specie in his program. Forgot the name lol.
Euphratus is indeed steril. Jim sproul can tell more about this subject. He uses the fertile specie in his program. Forgot the name lol.
Sorry for the multipost. I posted with my cellphone and somehow it posts several times, sorry!
Simon,
It has been said that ‘Euphrates’ is infertile by many who should know. I had it for awhile and never tried it because of the prior “knowledge”. I have also spread that “knowledge” without testing for fertility in it myself. It seems that I recall another European rose breeder that has had success in developing a line with ‘Euphrates’, so I wouldn’t eliminate the possibility of using it, if it was the only thing that I had to try.
It might just be nearly sterile, meaning that you might get something out of it, if you try long enough…
‘Tigris’ is definitely the fertile one. If you have access to it or one of it’s derivatives, I would go that direction.
Jim Sproul
Thanks Jim,
If you were going to use it, knowing it is probably nearly sterile, would you try using it as a pollen parent with the varieties with the best fertility as a seed parent in your collection?
Well if you got Euphrates and some spare time and you have good seed parents yor not using for anything else what could it hurt. what is the plooidy of Euphrates.
But on the other hand knowing Tigris is fertile or somewhat so; why not go that route if you have it at your disposal?
On a side note Hulthemia (I think I got the spelling right) I was looking at one of Denver’s Botanic garden list and saw they listed it in their collection. I think I will try to get it from them if I can or maybe just some pollen. If I do I think maybe crossing it with the cannie section could possably make a much more furtile interspecific hybrid. Maybe. Heres to distant far feached dreams.
I’ve not ever seen Tigris available here in Australia. Euphrates, on the other hand, is available ni small numbers. I should probably scratch it from my list of roses to keep as most of the literature I’ve read on it says it does best in a warm dry hot location. Exactly what Tasmania isn’t!
That’s exactly why I skipped out on them. You have to breathe water to live here!
Nigel Hawthorn seems to be an exception though. It is healthy and looks like this cute midget rugosa with these tiny little salmon/mauve blend blooms. It really is only about 1’ x 1’ w/ 1" blooms, but always healthy from what I have seen.
I’m sure it is as sterile as they come though. I’ve never seen hips form on it.
Simon, I would probably try it both ways, using it with my most fertile roses. I would also treat it like ‘Tigris’ is supposed to be treated to improve hip set - don’t remove the ‘Tigris’ anthers when placing the pollen from your selected pollen parent.
Though the original hulthemias come from more desert like conditions, the hybrids can tolerate quite alot of moisture, so I wouldn’t give up on them if you are interested in them.
Adam, your dreams sound like they are worth a try. I would probably skip ‘Tigris’ and go for some of Mr. Ralph Moore’s varieties that have been released. I have a repeat blooming line from his ‘Persian Sunset’. The repeat blooming seedlings are proving to be more fertile than ‘Tigris’ or direct seedlings from ‘Tigris’.
Jim Sproul
“don’t remove the ‘Tigris’ anthers when placing the pollen from your selected pollen parent.”
That’s interesting… so it is self-sterile then? Does emasculation trigger an aborting response of sorts?
Simon, I don’t think that the exact reason why hips take best on ‘Tigris’ when its anthers are not removed has been elucidated beyond doubt. I think that the most popular belief is that the ‘Tigris’ pollen grains, though infertile, help to make the ‘Tigris’ stigmas more receptive to other pollens.
Jim Sproul
the exact reason why hips take best on ‘Tigris’ when its anthers are not removed has been elucidated beyond doubt
My guess is simple hydrostatics. I noticed that when I emasculated some of the Moore hulthemias the wounds bled sap profusely. This would reduce the internal pressure available to push sap up into the stigmata leaving the pollen grains without sufficient moisture and sugar to germinate.