That is a repeated problem in descendants of Silver Jubilee.
Have you got a handle on the percentage of progeny that show proliferation?
I posted a link a few days ago to a video that explains the genetics of flower organ formation. One of the phenomena that it explains is how vegetative centers come to be. Here it is again.
I must say, if the vegetative centre thing is very common in ‘Hot Cocoa’ progeny, it will make me less likely to use HC for breeding with ‘Ebb Tide’.
Its not that big of a deal. For example, Daybreaker does it at random, but it is still highly productive and usable.
I’m calling the pollen parent as being Graham Thomas (Can’t guarantee that though).
Some flowers exhibit the deformity more than others…
Jon,
How much Nitrogen are these seedlings getting?
As a norm, I don’t fertilize often but leave it up to my soil. That flower was caused by balling due to cold weather.
It looks like the ‘C gene mutation’ mentioned in the You Tube link Don listed further up this thread… It looks like a second flower coming out of what should be the stigmas…???
I showed that picture in answer to Jim; in that, yes, the center can bloom. I had four Hot Cocoa seedlings (but I only do natural stratification). All exhibit this characteristic to some degree- as did Hot Cocoa for me (My HC x Oklahoma, which is semi-double, has only thrown one or two flowers this way). These are the ONLY roses I have seen exhibit ‘vegetative center’. They are also all photoreactive (changing color due to light) and have a quick fading yellow base.
See this is a flower from the seedling above that has stigma.
…and my HC x OK seedling (which doesn’t ‘blue’ but rather ‘blackens’)
(I should just the last two and be done with it…)
Jon, you said…‘but I only do natural stratification’
Do you mean natural pollination? (as in letting the insects pollinate).
No. I only plant my seeds in dirt in pots and leave outside during the winter.
I see…
Simon wrote >>>>>>>>“and I have a hankering to put ‘Hot Chocolate’ onto these purples”<<<<<<<<
I think this sounds a great idea, however there are several plants that go by the name ‘Hot Chocolate’…which one of these are you referring to?
Chocolate Sundae is also in that same vein of coloration (Bing Crosby is in a lighter shade). For darker muaves, I would also like to try Orpheline, Tuscany Superb, The Rook, and Cora.
Anyway, pics of the last two HC seedlings. (At least you all have a fair representation of HC progeny… and can maybe expect four seedlings per plant per year.) I would love to see other peoples.
Jon, if you don’t mind me asking, approximately how many seeds did you plant by ‘natural stratification’ to end up with the four HC germinations?
Julia’s Rose is a fairly popular russet rose here…however it is not vigorous. I wonder if it is worth mixing it with ‘Ebb Tide’?
‘Julias Rose’ is about to be shovel pruned here (tomorrow actually) because it is so bad… it sets OP hips that always abort late in the piece for me (they don’t get additional nitrogen based ferts). This is why I want the mini; ‘Teddy Bear’. I grew it as a kid so I know it must still be around somewhere, it can pass on the russets and is a far superior plant. My ‘Hot Chocolate’ is the Tom Carruth one (aka ‘Hot Cocoa’).It’s got a few flowers on it at the moment that I have other plans for… if I can get some pollen off it to put on longicuspis.
I seem to remember I had about three hips- so just a handful of seeds.
Hot Cocoa passes on some good qualities, works best as a pollen parent. It can generate some strong colors, including yellows. Worth exploring. See URL below.
As for Julia’s Rose…run away! This is one of the worst runty HTs I have ever grown, even when I have grafted it onto my most vigorous multiflora rootstock. No way would I ever attempt to use this wimp in breeding. In my mind, it has all of the worst flaws of a seriously flawed group of roses.
I’m glad to hear Teddy Bear grows well somewhere, because it sure is a disaster of a plant here: every disease known to man, no vigor, generally an underperformer.
I wish I could share with you this plant, which has excellent vigor and is in a similar color range:
I plan on using this further in breeding, as I feel it has something to contribute to the “brown” roses development.
Paul
Hi Jon, thanks for the answer about your hips/seed numbers.
Hi Simon and Hi Paul Barden… thanks about the ‘Julia’s Rose’ feeback…I was expectig a few bricks to be hurled my way as I wrote about it…LOL…the idea is canned!
Paul B, your ‘58-06-05’ and ‘119-06-01’ are both superb examples, to my eye, of what ‘Hot Cocoa’ can do, very much the colors I personally love…
My revised list for this season’s crosses so far is…
‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘Sweet Chariot’ (and reciprocal).
‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘Hot Cocoa’ (off to the rose growers to purchase HC now!)
‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘William Shakespeare 2000’ ( My WS 2000 is only newly planted and I am removing all its flowers to let it build up over summer, maybe use some of its pollen for a late pollination as the plant gets a bit of power behind it).
‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘R. Bracteata’ (I just did several of these crosses…I got a bucket-load of pollen with a lovely scent from just a couple of R. Bracteata flower buds…what a magical species this is!!!)
I have canned the idea of ‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘Stanwell Perpetual’ (not very practical, and I can jsut see a lot of pinks coming out of it, I don’t like pink much at all…).
Jadae, if I could get ‘Brown Velvet’ down here I would also try it. I know Robert cites disease troubles with it in his hot climate, however the blooms are irresistible to me (serious impulse thing).
The irony here is that although it was bred in NZ, a LOT if NZ stuff never got to Aus. as there was some turf war thing happening in the last part of last century (according to my local rose grower). This commercial ‘warfare’ of sorts resulted in a lengthy period where the fab roses from NZ were not getting to our shores… So the idea of AUS/NZ for rose availability is unfortunately not as simple as one would assume…alas!