I second Jadae’s comment about using Summer Song. I have doubts about any of the Austins having strong genes for yellow/orange, in spite of their appearance.
Thanks, this helps finish that idea off…better to know now than one year from now!
I think I am starting to develop more of a feeling now for making cooler judgements about what good parents are, based on all sorts of clues the vareities give out as plants. Chosing the right parents is as much fun as getting down to the business of the actual pollinations.
George, ‘Ebb Tide’ grows nicely here but certainly isn’t spot-free. It produces plenty of pollen for me too and I have just started using it with the view to making good purples too… I’m mainly going OGR/Species routes atm though or putting it on Teas because I think we need to focus on going for roses that are good here in Australlia’s heat and humidity. If you are looking for purples to try I can also recommend a few others that are proving valuable here. They include; ‘Route 66’ (almost black here for me and at least as healthy as ‘Ebb Tide’ (with a similar pedigree) and ‘Wild Rover’ (this is an awesome rose that sets seed easily and which germinates easily for me). Others in my purple camp, destined to be breeders, are; ‘Ann Endt’, ‘William Lobb’, ‘Rhapsody in Blue’, ‘Sweet Chariot’, ‘Violette’, ‘Veilchenblau’, and ‘Tuscany Superb’. I want to get Cardinal de Richelieu to add to this list next year as well. Early work for me will include putting these dark purples with minis and I have a hankering to put ‘Hot Chocolate’ onto these purples as well and to put these purples onto ‘Francis Dubreuil “NOT”’, ‘St Francis Xavier’ (a new Aussie Tea bred by George Thomson) and my new ‘Black Jade’ x ‘Black jade’ seedling as its leaves are three times the size/width of BJ’s leaves, nicely serrated, and so far all looks good healthwise too (this is its first flower that began to open the other day - the seedling is growing outside and has so far shown no spotting or mildew):
.
Hi Simon.
You have a great selection of roses, very nice.
I am planning the following crosses this season as far as the purples/deep reds go:
*‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘William Shakespeare 2000’
*‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘Sweet Chariot’ (and vice-versa)
*‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘R. Bracteata’ (try not to laugh)
*Maybe ‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘Stanwell Perpetual’ (if I can get a bucket-load of flowers to do one pollination…LOL).
I intend to be fully open about all of my crosses, as they start to happen, so that we can all share the information, it is much more fun that way, and a great way to learn.
BTW Simon, your ‘Black Jade’ x ‘Black Jade’ seedling is very gorgeous, I love the deep red/black shades. Maybe it will turn out a miniflora version of BJ, which could be very cool indeed…hope it is fertile!
BTW the idea of ‘Ebb Tide’/‘Sweet Chariot’ came after I saw it on Paul Barden’s publicised crosses…It made sooo much sense to me and since I have just acquired ‘Sweet Chariot’ for unrelated (diploid) crosses, I couldn’t resist to also try Paul’s idea…I hope this is not too crass of me…LOL!
“‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘R. Bracteata’ (try not to laugh)”
I was thinking about this one as well… and still might though it will probably result in a triploid (if that matters) and Paul mentioned somewhere that he was thinking he’d have more success with his bracteata line if he established starter stock based on fertle diploids before diving into playing with hybrids of greater ploidy… this makes a lot of sense to me so I was looking around for a fertile diploid purple to do the same kind of thing. I have some exciting news too George but will have to email you about it 
Simon,
The main reason I got ‘Sweet Chariot’ was to develop a diploid-Bracteata line, for our hot conditions…
My newly acquired ‘Sweet Chariot’ has had all its blackspotted leaves removed, and it has been repotted and mulched… As soon as it starts to refoliate and flower, I will go ahead with ‘Sweet Chariot’ x ‘R.Bracteata’.
The ‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘R. Bracteata’ idea is just the opposite, and if it works I can expect triploid or tetraploid that can give off mixed ploidy pollens (total chaos LOL)…
Simon, good luck with Cardinal de Richelieu- I do believe it is a (breeding) dead end (IE. COMPLETELY sterile… and also prone to blackspot).
RE: ‘Cardinal de Richelieu’. Lovely rose, unique coloring, but don’t get your hopes up. I too believe it is completely sterile. If it were possible to get hybrids out of it, we’d see pedigree listings stating the fact, but there are none whatsoever.
George, I think its a great idea for you to attempt some of the same crosses I did. Go for it. Any time you can backcross a highly evolved breeding line to one of its ancestors, you stand a chance of reinforcing some of the most desirable traits. You may also reinforce some you don’t want, but thats the chance you take. I also think it is well worth considering to backcross some of the Carruth purples with the original parent, ‘Violette’. Throwing ‘Veilchenblau’ (or ‘Baby Faurax’, a supposed seedling of it) into the equation might also be well worth doing. I don’t worry nearly as much about ploidy matching as I used to. As Ralph frequently told me, “the rose will find a way”.
Speaking of ploidy matching…
I am thinking about your suggestion of ‘Ebb Tide’ X R. bracteata. Yes, it is very likely that it is a 4X crossed with a 2X, but then thats what Ralph’s original cross was that created ‘Muriel’: it was R. bracteata X "Guinee’, the latter being a 4X climbing Hybrid Tea. And yet out came ‘Muriel’, a confirmed tetraploid. (David and I tested it) So, anything is possible. Now, about ‘Muriel’: its an odd creature. Yes, its a tetraploid, but in reproduction it behaves oddly, giving both 1N and 2N pollen. There is only speculation as to how this happens, but it illustrates beautifully what we have suspected for a century about the evolution of the modern Hybrid Tea: you can start out crossing Diploids and Tetraploids and by selecting over generations you eventualy establish a fully tetraploid race of plants. There is still an awful lot we don’t know about how genes behave in roses (and all plants, really).
Have we actually had a confirmation of 'Sweet Chariot’s ploidy? If you look at its lineage you will see that at nearly every stage of its pedigree, you can find examples of both tetraploid hybrids and species, and diploid hybrids and species making up its ancestry. Progeny from a cross of ‘Little Chief’ X ‘Violette’ could easily have produced a range of ploidies I would think. That ‘Little Chief’ is another odd duck. Bred from ‘Ebloissant’ and “Zee” it is probably a diploid, as ‘Ebloissant’ is confirmed as such, and the odds are that “Zee” was as well. (Although as we already know, anything is possible!) If ‘Little Chief’ is in fact a triploid (Many highly fertile Moore roses are, by the way) then that might explain why it is such an easy pollen parent (giving both 1N and 2N pollen) and so very choosy when it comes to accepting foreign pollen for making seed. Mine (as Ralph told me to expect) is very reluctant to form seed, and only occasionally will I find pollen that it likes. Often it sets seed with a certain pollen but only one pollination in five or six actually takes. Its a fussy one that way. I think ‘Little Chief’ could prove very valuable in breeding if used in very new and different ways. It might be a candidate for crossing known diploid species like R. bracteata and perhaps hardy North American diploids to create hardy shrubs. ( already have a group of seedlings I am using in breeding that resulted from a cross of R. foliolosa X ‘Little Chief’. All of them are medium to large shrubs (the miniaturization fact seems to have been lost entirely in the first generation!) and some of them are highly fertile. If you look at my breeding document for 2009 you will see a cross listed as #44-09, which is 81-02-purple X Therese Bugnet, a cross done precisely with this in mind. The 81-02-purple is the R. foliolosa X ‘Little Chief’ and looks remarkably like 'Basye’s Purple, but a more compact, shapely bush, and it is highly fertile as a seed bearer. (I have germinated open pollinated seeds with ease)
That enough information for now?
Best of luck,
Paul
I am excited to try Midnight Blue X Little Chief next year. Paul, you said that Little Chief should be crossed with something different than itself to work it’s magic, and I am thinking the coloring of it should match up well with MB. Hoping it will produce some cool stuff.
Mike
Hi Paul.
Thanks for the interesting extra information and directions here. Your ideas tie in very well, there is always consistency and reinforcement in what you say, which helps others like me learn things a whole lot faster.
If you can get Singing in the Rain (Spek’s Centennial???) and Top Notch (Matawhero Magic) down there in AUS/NZ, then that may be worth trying with the purples. They both have the Eurorose and Golden Wave lines, which are stronger yellow dominants, that could bring interesting results when mixed with the purples.
Also, Edith Holden would be an interesting mix.
btw, I see that Mistydowns sells Sweet Magic, which might be a good breeder for minis.
Jadae, I was looking up Edith Holden and saw the parentage and looked familiar. I was looking at Euroroses website today and was looking at Iris Webb and the parents are almost the same as Edith Holden by the same breeder. I believe Southhampton was added to the mix. Might be a good one also.
Patrick
Hi Jadae. I love your examples of ‘burnt’/yellow-oranges…thank you for making the effort you have to explain your point about the right sort of oranges to blend with purples.
“with Cardinal de Richelieu- I do believe it is a (breeding) dead end (IE. COMPLETELY sterile”
Really??? Bummer! I haven’t even looked at it on HMF yet… just been drooling over its photo in a book I have.
What about ‘Black Moss’ (‘Nuits de Young’)… I see you’ve used it a bit Paul. There aren’t many photos of it on HMF that make it look really ‘black’ though. How is this as a parent to add to my wish list?
What about Cardinal Hume, anyone used it for mauve type breeding. I know its fertile because I picked a bunch of hips off of one and will have seedlings soon as they are starting to germinate.
Patrick
‘Cardinal Hume’, is quite seed fertile and will accept pollen from almost any source.
Cardinal Hume, sadly, is also very Blackspot prone in most all climates, a condition that does not improve with age of the plant. I used to use it in breeding but gave up on it, as its seedlings were terrible for disease. However, in the right hands and with diligence, something good might come of it.
Cardinal Hume has a lineage like an ADHD person in a room full of toys, lol.