Early Days for Hardy Moss Try

[RikuHelin]

One objective of a half dozen l have, is to see if can add to an inventory of one apparently hardy Canadian bred moss cross by l believe Skinner.

Named “Mossman” (1954). Auspicious year in hybridizing. Except purist might argue not a true moss - no French moss in it?

However it appears step 2 completed. Today’s harvest of Mme de la Roche-Lambert, a French moss, hip showed it accepted Nelly Kelly pollen (Finn spino).

Nelly Kelly totally hardy in my garden. Not MRL.

Good seed count produced from single hip from single bloom pollinated.

[roseseek]

Good luck! I agree, 1954 was a very good year! I’ll be interested in seeing the results of your cross. Raising mosses now isn’t the ordeal it once was. Mossman is one I’d wanted to grow for a long time but it never made itself available when I was in “collector mode”. Obviously there is something “moss” in it or there wouldn’t be the level of mossing there is, though crossing Dottie Louise (Orangeade X Basye’s Legacy) X Fedtschenkoana did result in a rather “mossed” seeding.

You can also take inspiration from Ralph Moore’s “Nutshop” moss, so named as it’s bred from Shoener’s Nutkana and the plant grew down by the shop in the nursery. 'Nutshop' Rose
If the moss seeds prove too difficult to germinate, try the reverse of the cross with any pollen you can dig out of the moss blooms. Good luck!

[RikuHelin]

Hi Roseek,

Indeed ‘54 was a good year for roses.

Thanks for encouragement and your experience.

Tried to get Mossman into the collection a couple times. But European source tapped out and missed on a frenzied rose rustle in a Nirvana heritage garden for me (legit rustle). May try again.

GOOD TIP, both Schoener’s and the species available in garden and worked well last year with Hazeldean and PP pollen - did require a few thermal cycles but produced a combined 7-8 germinations. Will schedule for next year with MRL and NdY if latter blooms.

Also carry NdYoung(e) but took a beating last winter (with protection) after a spectacular bloom. Apparently in Nirvana as Haj.

[RikuHelin]

Couldn’t get a germination from seeds but believe l botched the stratification for nearly all my crosses last year.

(aka experimenting with technique too much - or too much water as usual - now city in water emergency state declaration, however the good people of San Diego SoCal sent a very large bore replacement pipe (no BS).

However Mme responded well to protection and loaded with buds this spring so refocusing on summer and trying it both as seed and pollen parent ( latter Skinner’s approach with his “old moss donor”).

Nutkana hold promise of good bloom so your suggestion will be a priority.

From HMF …” In 1954 Dr. F.L. Skinner¨… introduced Mossman, an interesting step in moss rose breeding. Heavily mossed buds open into very double pale pink flowers - a cross involving (R. acicularis x R. rugosa) x an old Moss rose; spring bloom only.”

A diploid l believe.

Mme example photo today of protection results and great potential to paint the garden “ mossy” this breeding season.

[aimbeault]

Hi Riku,

I did some crosses tests with Mossman several years ago with rather disappointing results. First of all, I didn’t waste time looking for pollen and as a seed bearer, it wasn’t a success either. I found in my notes the only 2 crosses that I had made on a small plant which did not survive. 3 flowers of (Mossman x Roseraie de l’Haÿ) which gave 2 fruits containing 4 seeds in total, and 3 flowers of (Mossman x Rita Bugnet), a single fruit which contained a single seed, no germination for the crosses. I didn’t do any further testing afterwards.

But last year, I had good flowering on my Célina moss rose plant which had suffered a lot of damage over the past winters. Its semi-double flowers allow a good harvest of pollen. So I was able to do several tests as a pollinator and seed bearer. I intend to do some crossings again soon. Here are some results :

3 fl. (Célina x J5), 1 fruit, 3 seeds.

2 fl. (Célina x M6910), 1 fruit, 7 seeds.

3 fl. ((Mont Blanc x Rita Bugnet) x Célina)), 2 fruits, 10 seeds.

5 fl. (08X x Célina), 1 fruit, 6 seeds. (08X = Wasagaming OP)

2 fl. (15U-2 x Célina), 1 fruit, 10 seeds. (15U-2 = (Alfred x King J)

4 fl. (182Q-2 x Célina), 4 fruits, 45 seeds, 7 germinations, 4 potted, 2 dead. (182Q-2 = (Alison OP OP)

4 fl. (Alfred x Célina), 3 fruits, 9 seeds, 1 germination, 1 potted. (Alfred = hyb. of rugosa unknown)

I hope that these few results will inspire you in your future projects. I can’t wait to see the results you get with Mme de la Roche Lambert.

[RikuHelin]

Hi Andre,

They definitely do!

Excellent news and inspirational somebody in a colder climate recognized an interesting avenue and has been pursuing.

My assumption is Celine is the 1843 Hardy creation - mauve? Louberts? Some photos so very strong and attractive mauve.

Thank you for the detailed parentage tests counts with your own and AgCan and results - very useful. I am hoping my R. de la H. blooms this year as it will dabbed also and along with Hansa.

The ? “beggeriana”? has a few doing well but waiting to see if present glaucous color on some remains (lost about 1/2 due to “hurray get going syndrome” and garden is much barer in spring forgot were vigorous shade perennials were buried - now sans some leaves).

Blue green leaves, or as known to me “glaucous”, is a trait of beggeriana … according to HMF. Just surprised “how” intense.

Leaflets also very high count … as much and more than my Louis Riel and my 20 year old R glauca (rubrifolia sic).

Other “beggeriana” seedlings not showing as glaucous (2nd photo - shadier spot in morning till noon).

Going to be interesting when they grow up as source is a hardy botanical garden. Who knows what the pollinators brought.

l will send frozen 2024 pollen of de la Mme R L if l find it. My version not as double as HMF as l recall … recall can be a faulty tool … to do as you wish …

Merci beaucoup
salut Riku

another in shade w/o glaucoma tone

Confirmed seeds from beggeriana plant and another party has some.

Shaded special “x-ones” being relocated to sunny spot cleared of spino runners and planted with other seedlings of mine and legacy tender runners. Legacy tenders survived over 19-15 years in north back garden by staying low …

Bergs x blue tags.

Minerva statue kind of ironical since in human made declared emergency state water conservation - level 4

drought rules.

My beggeriana nigrencs (sic) donated by rose friend - marked difference

Note single white prickle below leaf node on nigrensc, and relatively “prickles smooth small cane length” like laxa some writers propose contributes to beggeriana and also red leaf part - can’t recall OEM part name, maybe stipule???

[aimbeault]

Bonjour Riku,

Indeed, Célina was part of an order placed with Loubert a few years ago. Thank you for the pollen offer from Mrs de la Roche Lambert and for the photos of the young R. beggeriana. They seem rather vigorous with their different colors of foliage, I really like the foliage of the R. glauca type. I have OP seedlings of the latter that are over 10 feet tall, and one whose stems are 99.9% spineless. I obtained some results with one of them named Glauca2: (Le Cid x Glauca2) with semi-double pink flowers but without the foliage of R. glauca and (Rita Bugnet x Glauca2) small pink flower similar to Fimbriata and foliage of the R. glauca type, very beautiful. There are still a few weeks left to have fun playing bumblebees, I should perhaps do some crosses with my R. beggeriana “nigrescens”, why not…?!

[RikuHelin]

l agree go for it !

Your decades ahead of my skills levels- get pounded on germination technique - but working on it, and my plants are very young (blooms going to take awhile).

Probably not that many in Cdn moving forward for the cold zoners 3-4-5a for real hardies of merit since AgCan packed it in. Going back to species gene pool for has always been attractive to me.

June 26 after Thought

How Andre, how shameful of me not to mention the winter and bridge performance of one of Napoleon’s field marshals, a named mosses Maréchal Davoust ( from Pickering many years ago).

Honourable mention for valour under extreme climate conditions and surviving without protection. Don’t move for a fear chasing karma away.

The performance measures are pretty pretty loose or slack considering.

Consists of survives and incredibly, relative other legacy tenders, blooms every couple of years a nice “pink” bloom or two … looks like two this year - protected from travels by a sons “looks like a wolf but not dog- by cage”.

Low mossing and l tried crossing once, but now that remember it when passing it during garden tour on list.

[aimbeault]

Hi Riku,
I bought several old European rose bushes from Pickering, they had a nice collection. I still have a few left, Centifolias, Damascus, Sparkling and Gallic which have resisted and gone through all kinds of winter conditions, in my zone 3b-4a, without protection and with more or less damage. I didn’t do many crosses with these, I was more interested in the old Canadian roses. These very rustic rose bushes, obtained among others by Wright, Erskine, Skinner and especially those of Georges Bugnet, were and still are, my first choices for my crossings. I obtained several hybrids by crossing them with each other and with rugosa hybrids, which I still work with today. And to stay on the theme of moss roses, here are the crosses that I have just finished for the 2024 season with my moss rose Célina:

Celina x Applejack
Célina x Wasagaming OP
Célina x (Roseraie de l’Haÿ x J5)
Célina x Amélie Gravereaux
Célina x (Alfred x King J)
Rose garden of l’Haÿ x Célina
Amélie Gravereaux x Célina
Nyveldt’s White x Célina
Jens Munk x Célina
Lac Majeau x Célina
Rita Bugnet x Célina

All I have to do now is follow the progress of these attempts and cross my fingers hoping for some positive results, to be continued…?!

[RikuHelin]

Excellent somebody working with the original Canadian pioneer bred material.

Others chase other venues - lately l seem to gravitate to pollinating F1 or pollen contributors that resulted from species x tender and/or vise versa which brings in the Canadian pioneer hybridized roses.

My large number of dabs from a garden holdings survey a couple of years back with a variety of selections ID Merveille and both R nutkana and Schoeners nutkana as great mothers and germinated seedlings with an explorer (JC) and the species fedstschenkoniana, Ross Rambler #1 and other obscure roses ( Finn species and the great morden yellow, the tender Bill Reid)… at this stage not seeing any potential in any of the seedlings. Weird stunted or green giant stuff for 2 year olds.

Unfortunately original source of mossman disappeared but tapped into an offer of cuttings l am going accept. I have tried 4 times to make it go over the years with runners - came close but didn’t return after 2nd winter.

Mme de la Roche Lambert is holding off blooming as is the Marechal and that’s good because no rugosa/ hybrids or complex ones have bloomed - except for Lac la Nonne and a mislabelled Pacific Pearls (solid pink) to my eyes.

However, Caroyal is also blooming, so pollen collected / stored and also crossed both ways with R nutkana. If you’re not familiar with it, though you probably are, it’s a giant hairy “hybrid rugosa of rugosas” being Hansa x La la Nonne. Royal purple red to my eyes. Its blooms are as large as LlN and Hansa. No problem cold backyard north garden location and thankfully no yellowing leaf trait in my alkaline soil.

The royal purple red is an absolute stand out when you walk into the garden. Only roses l have seen close to this color blend is R de la Haie (sic?) and Carlos Red and Double Carlos Red (latter two l believe aciccularis Erskine found).

I await the more complex parentages to begin their bloom. Might be tempted ( definitely will) by a “damask???” and a “damask something other maybe” with moss. .

First is the Canadian found rose named Indian Head (Wright) and second is Canadian named Grannie’s rose - think it is out of east- both plenty of buds. Grannie sailed through its 1st winter with no protection 1- 3 ft canes - Indian Head was protected as had a runner that bloomed after one winter but packed it in after the second. Fantastic bloom form in my opinion. Itching to try Md l R L moss on both.

Both obtained from Cornhill. However if Osborne still carries them you will need to call as all his historical roses seem to have disappeared from his site. He was baking up some Isabelle Skinner a few years back. l managed to acquire one from him based on limited supply or l would cleaned his stock out. One source of cuttings for him was apparently living Skinner relative who use run his own nursery. Laxa l believe and same one parent or derivative as in Zelesky’s A&B background.

Also have Dr FL Skinner - not that hardy in my garden, but large tawny blooms - thrips love them and hips size of ten pin bowling balls . Crossed awhile back, but stymied by lack of experience - should go back as got a new one from him - original planting ~ 10 years old and a hardiness challenge as mentioned (dies down and no blooms for years).

So far have completed about dozen non moss crosses - mainly tries at altering species attributes with another species. For example crossed R nutkana with R pendulina because want to move it more to red than pink.

regards
Riku

[RikuHelin]

Looks like l can add a third damask to crossing with a moss.

This one a long shot and not in line with recreating a hardy moss - but too strong to resist rare blooms this year and form. Did not try it before with a moss - pollen from it a “hunt” but it’s there.

My Sidonie damask perpetual showed up this year in most protected plot - disappeared l thought last 2 years. Good to USA zone 4b (per HMF).

These OGRs tend to do this, and noticed my bullata or juno, showing up after mowed down by winter (same plot c/w protection). Wont bloom this year but strong growth.

First moss still not blooming but in ~ 2days.

Add a bonus experience - don’t advise going there - in zone 4 a CDN photo for cold zoners … two more OGRs Baronne Prevost and/or Juno/ Bullata - all ~4-5 year old plantings - Palatine source. Same age and all have died down at least once in most protected spot with covering. de la Roche Lambert bud in for ground.

l abandoned adding / crossing as some had no resistant to die down and in best spot, and no meaningful pollen, or too hard to mine. Keep for nostalgia.

And Grannie bloomed first time today - found rose a bit more than single but good semi- hardy (no covering by me). Might be damask derivative if it’s that hardy in garden … one of moss targets due large flower and simple so as to balance M de la R- L form.

[MidAtlas]

I was able to use ‘Baronne Prevost’ in crosses as a seed parent back in MN, so that might be an option for you. Although it isn’t cane-hardy, it does seem to have a strong will to survive.

Stefan

[MidAtlas]

Regarding the Grannie Rose, I don’t know if you’ve stumbled across this before, but Skinner penned an article called A New Approach to the Breeding of Hardy Roses in American Rose Annual 41: 123-125 (1956) where he wrote the following:

"In recent years quite a number of dwarf varieties of the old roses that are sufficiently hardy to flower in Manitoba without protection have become available and the following have all ripened fruit out of doors in Manitoba:

Anais Ségales, R. alba, a variety common in the north of Scotland, Belle Isis, Chamcook, called after the place in eastern Canada where it has been grown for many years, probably a Gallica variety, Duchess[e] de Verneuil, Duchesse de Buccleugh, R. damascena rubrotincta, a Damascena variety received from eastern Canada as the Grannie Rose, R. gallica grandiflora, large blush Gallica, a Cabbage or Gallica variety received from Mrs. Lynnes without name, Marcel Bourgeuin [Bourgouin], Nuits d’Young [de Young], Rose des Maures, Souvenir d’Alphonse Lavelle[e] and Captain Hayward."

Even though he thought that the “Grannie Rose” was ‘Hebe’s Lip’, your photo really doesn’t look like it to me. There might be something in Sect. Rosa (=Sect. Cinnamomeae) in there that could explain the slightly unusual leaflet shape (tapering gradually to a point basally) and cold hardiness.

Of the rest of his list, it looks like ‘Duchesse de Verneuil’ (along with ‘Nuits de Young’, which you’ve already grown) is a moss type that might be worth checking out.

Karl had this on his Cyberrose website, and you can still find it here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210509102312/http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/Skinner/skinner_new_approach.html

Stefan

[RikuHelin]

Hi Stefan

Txs for suggestion.

l would agree with conclusion it’s definitely not Hebe’s Lip - by photos and l tried to grow many years ago.

Closer shot of Grannie typical leaf this rainy morning.

My R. cinnamomeae plena - labelled as such - that use to be sold by CHN. Just shy of 6’.

Below photo of my Ran hybrid of R. majalis × *Rosa helenae ‘hybrida’ (Lund Norway ~1970). Does not produce hips.

Somebody crossed RhH with a hardy and created a hardy rose …

Like the tight cluster of Ran buds similar to RhH. The tight cluster you see in Grannie photo are not Grannie’s they are “Pax Apollo”. Grannie are the more” damask like” for sake of argument, or can’t think of another variety comparison at moment.

There appears to my eye to be similarities in leaf form.

July 4

Hi Andre,

Onward and forward … in a few hours or a day - haven’t decided … finally … gads nearly forgot how impressive a color.

Also got your hint she was married back in the day … thanks for subtle hint

[aimbeault]

Hi Riku,

So much the better if my experience was useful to you. Indeed this color is really impressive but difficult to obtain. With this beautiful variety of rose bushes that you have, everything is possible, even the impossible could become possible despite genetics, you have to dare. I obtained some very interesting rose bushes from open seedlings, thanks to all these foragers who go from one flower to another without worrying about genetics. Of course it is part of my planning at the start of the season, but once in the field and depending on the flowering times, the projects multiply and my list of crosses grows. Again this year, more than 60 crosses were made on 230 flowers. For me the important thing is to have fun like the bumblebees seem to have, even if for them this activity is vital.
Happy end of the season Riku!
André

[RikuHelin]

July 6

Hi Andre,

Good to hear a successful season, and yes my species et al project was growing during period before Madam’s bloom.

A disjointed scattering of field notes as of to date.

… repeating how impressive a color for Madam, but high summer sun finishes each bloom in 2 days.

Now l remember why only used her as female last year.

Didn’t wait a day as soon as bloom 8-9/10s open, collected stamens and anthers in morning then dried. 1 day later extremely challenging as full bloom and stamen curling makes an extremely tedious watch makers challenge for collecting a reasonable amount of pollen.

Bloom petals not stripped off, left on to enjoy colour (for only 24 hrs) so that increases challenge to collecting, a choice trade off, as winter is the final arbritator on whether it blooms next year.

Must say Celine looks like more amiable for harvesting pollen.

And again history pops up after a long hiatus from bygone mis-adventures in all ogrs classes. Another sidonie maybe showing up in cold back garden after ~ 4-6 years dormancy. Popped up at same location as last. Though dark red bud may be red HP (mat leaves).

Grannie’s Rose not an issue for collecting as a large bloom single with large boss of anthers.

Granny crossed with Madame x2, but many more blooms yet to go as season gets into high gear for tenders. Madame crossed with Schoener’s nutkana.

Have a good end of season and all the best in germinations.

Here are my crosses planned and todate in shorthand. Cross will come and go from list as my season progresses.

Moss crosses started - filled couplets are done and half partners shown are planned.

These rough notes usually end up cleaned up in years spreadsheet that allows noting step results

••June 2024••

xan x suzanne
suzanne x xan
pend x xan
pend x suzanne
suzanne x manning blush
tove x RR1
Manningsx(suzanne+Doorenbs)
ManningsxXan
nutkana x pedulina
madeline’s choice x caroyal
nut x rist
nut x caroyal
hertonmii x caroyal
caroyal x hertonmii
grannies x morden sunrise

••Mdm de la Roche Lambert (F)••

lambert x grannies
x lndian Head
x schon/nut
x pp
x hazel
x alika
x 6910
x caroyal
x L83
x carefree B
x metis
x riel
x nitida
x mordens SR PR / explorers (JC)
x Rds

••Mdm Roche Lambert (M) reverse••

grannies x lambert
x lndian Head
schon x lambert
x pp
x hazel
x alika
x 6910
caroyal x lambert
x L83
x carefree
x metis
x riel
x nitida
x mordens / explorers (JC)
x RDS

regards
Riku

[RikuHelin]

Hello Andre

Today have the once in a while rare blooming in my garden of Maréchal Davoust today (2). Thank the long sunny hot days.

Pollen well exposed. Easier than Madame.

Will use mix of R. Iaxa and R. Fedtschenkoniana as pollen parents and save the Marechal’s pollen. Not heavily
Mossed.

[aimbeault]

A nice mix of pollen and perhaps the R. fedtschenkoana genes, with its rather resinous (mossy) buds, will help maintain or increase moss on General Davoust seedlings. I can’t wait to see the results. Good luck!

[RikuHelin]

Done to all blooms - laxa+fedts… I note the surface of the hips of fedtschenkonian, though “prickly soft”, may also do something of interest if all else successful. Wait and see time now.

[RikuHelin]

Hi Andre,

I consider the crossing season over for me as species, F1s, and Ogrs bloom done. There maybe the odd species (R carolina/viginiana blooming) modern and explorer/ mordens done in near term.

Drought now taking hold on plants, aphids and shellac plant leaf coating extensive so stopping - (where are the nymphs and ladies?) and concentrating on getting garden stable now that l can water with hand held hose.

Finished x’ings list at 38, below in short hand, numbers per crossing close approximate, its more than less in some cases - still needs cleanup:

June-July 2024-species /F1, moderns

Auli x (Fedstchenkonian + laxa)

xan x suzanne

suzanne x xan

pendu x xan

pendu x suzanne

suzanne x manning blush

tove x RR1

Mannings x (Suzanne+Doorenbs)

nutkana x pedulina

madeline’s choice x caroyal

nutkana x rist

nutkana x caroyal

Herton. x caroyal

caroyal x Herton.

laxa (tetra) x Hunter

laxa (tetra) x metis

sunrise x Grannie’s (2)

Grannie’s x morden sunrise (1)

Metis x Grannie’s (1)

A&B x Grannie’s (2)

Grannie’s x ? (1)

Indian Head x laxa (tetra)

M6910 x JC (4)

JC x M 6910 (3)

Lumo x L83

Lumo x JC

Lumo x Splendens

Lumo x (more to come)

Laxa x Hunter

Mosses

Marechal Davoust x (laxa + fedtsch) (2)

Mdm Roche Lambert (F)

Lambert x grannies (whole cane6+)

Lambert x laxa tetra (5)

Lambert x Schoener’s/nut (1)

Lambert x fedtschenkonian (2 damaged)

Mdm de la Roche Lambert (M)

Grannies x lambert (2)

Laxa tetra x lambert (7)

Schoener’s x lambert

caroyal x lambert

Riku