Came across this parentage in digging and hoping for confirmation of formula gramatical math answer … and fuzzy logic conclusion of answer l make. Lot of OP notes and various bracketed associations with note.
‘Lili Marlene’ x {[‘Red Pinocchio’ x( ‘Joanna Hill’ x Rosa Spinosissima altaica)open pollination]open pollination}
… l read formula as seed parent is a tender Lili Marlene, pollen parent is op of the RP (tender seed parent again) and a cross of JH (tender seed parent again) and altaica … last bone hardy species is a favourite of prairie Heritage crosses along with laxa.
… but doesn’t OP mean unknown for sure and a best guess for entire pollen parentage.
I think you’re missing an OP maybe? The pollen parent looks like two generations of OP from the original ‘Red Pinocchio’ x( ‘Joanna Hill’ x Rosa Spinosissima altaica) cross, So instead of “pollen parent is op of the RP…” would be “pollen parent is op of an op of the RP…”
Also the ‘Red Pinocchio’ x( ‘Joanna Hill’ x Rosa Spinosissima altaica) is the same cross as Frühlingsanfang so either a coincidence, attempt to repeat similar result or could be Frühlingsanfang.
Thanks… l will use as a take away that a general guide for crown hardy +, in past successful efforts seems to be a tested belief a “receptive tender” as seed parent, and the hardy on the pollen side … somewhere down the breeding line. Though l think Kordessi maybe in somewhere down “Marlene” line ( didn’t chase)
Red Pinnochio x (Joanna Hill x R. spinosissima altai) was a cross made by Robert Simonet which Dr. Svejda coded “S44”.
The rose Joanna Hill x R. spinosissima altai was later renamed in commerce as ‘Dr. F.L. Skinner’.
Dr. Svejda then coded an open pollinated seedling of S44 as “D10”
Chart from HMF. Info from Dr. Svejda’s book ‘The Canadian Explorer Roses’.
[img][attachment=0]d10 FROM SVVEDJA.jpg[/attachment]
Great info Margit, looks like l will be book hunting.
I have used Dr FL Skinner, but only as a seed parent - nothing. Not noticed the tender- hardy FM template before that seems to work.
Fortunately hardy male stock back to first gen and second available in garden to try template but with different tenders.
You can sure see at least the influence in color and bloom size / form of Joanne Hill in my Dr FLSkinner. One the trips like, mind you the good doctor has been badly mauled by sudden dieback, deer and careless pruning.
Hardiness doesn’t always work the way we assume it does. If I recall correctly, hardiness has 3 genetic factors that are each polygenetic in nature.
Cold hardiness
Stress tolerance
Heat hardiness
1 and 3 tend to overlap into 2 quite frequently. Roses bred in the desert can (not always) be generally hardy to Canada, but the same cannot be said for greenhouse or subtropical conditions of the same temperature ranges.
In short, hardiness is really complex and we dont yet have a full understanding of how it works.
With that said, I think John Franklin was a good attempt at using semi-dwarf genetics into Canadian extremes. Had it been now, better parents could be selected for the same concept.
Thanks for the interesting technical broadening of the multi-variant aspects of cold zone hybridizing vs the amateurs non-market driven interests (eg stunting-dwarfing goal for small plot landscaping).
Something worth pursuing once l get on a successful crossing and germination formula … like Simonet (RDxS). Dropping Spino traits to 5-6 feet would be advantageous. Increasing age of this homoerectus individual requires and favours rose varieties that are in my face - getting tough to articulate and flex.
One of growing aspects l find interesting is a lot of the species roses from the hot desert dry and winter cold “xyz stan” countries seem to be cold tolerant in Southern Alberta including Persicas (in my garden). Count Alberta Prickly Pear catus in as non rose example - one of the few succulents l saw that did not get damaged in the great Cornish freeze at Mount StMichael back winter 2017-18 (maritime temperate).
There probably isn’t a deeper reason for the success of tender (seed parent) x cold-hardy (pollen parent) crosses’ success other than that the tender parents in such cases have tended to have more easily-germinated seed than the particular cold-hardy pollen parents. In other words, if you had a cold-hardy parent that germinated with ease, that would probably be just as good at successfully generating offspring by seed, and would probably have been easier used that way instead, all other things being equal. Rosa rugosa is probably in that category. Many of the cold-hardy parents in the above examples of tender x hardy crosses are probably susceptible to “Pimpinellifoliae germination syndrome,” where seeds germinate in very low percentages and/or often require extended or multi-year seed treatment before they’re willing to sprout.
Wonderful photos, by the way. I love how heat-despising temperates like Primula prolifera and Dicksonia antarctica commingle so casually with heat-indifferent species like Trachycarpus fortunei, Cordyline australis, and Agave ovatifolia in British (and Pacific North American) gardens. Great Cornish freeze? What was that, -5°C?
I’ve always been collector of anecdotal observational empirical growing climatic data … answer to your question … “plummeted to below zero” … but wind was wicked think 65 mph … thoroughly enjoy the Duchy … suppose to head back within year …
I’ll bet that it was the several days of snow cover that did the most damage–a lot of plants that can easily handle brief cold snaps if dry can suffer badly if they experience extended contact with snow and ice.
