Case re-opened for definitive ID.

This ID case is now re-opened!

Viru has sent an email reply to this topic / conversation and comments that some of the leaves as well as the flower I pictured yesterday do resemble clinophylla.

I must admit, it is true that on very close inspection, the leaflets of this seedling as it grows, are now taking on a much more fernlike/elongated/droopy character, and as such do bear some overall resemblance to the leaves of my two R.clinophylla plants along the same row in the garden (there are fewer leaflets on this seedling’s leaves, and they are a tad larger than the R.clinophylla leaflets, but of similar character otherwise). One of these R. clinophylla has very dark green leaves and burgundy stems, whilst the other R.clinophylla is a lime green overall. They are quite pretty juvenile plants in their own right at this stage, and extremely healthy, no hint of any disease at all!

The pollen I collected from this flower was a tiny amount, and I could not detect any odor coming from it this morning (when it was dry).

I will continue to test the pollen scent for acetone as per Viru’s advice on this important clue.

Hopefully larger quantities of flowers and pollen are going to be produced now that spring has arrived.

I am sure it will become much easier to compare the scent of the dry pollen from this seedling to that from the flowers of my other two confirmed clinobracteata and R.clinophylla seedlings, once they start to flower (who knows when that will be!).

If this seedling eventually does prove to have clinobracteata genetics, then I WILL be using it in breeding!


The rose is very pretty; reminds me of a stylized oriental painting of a rose.


I have two of the Dr Basye bracteata line seedlings up now too<<<<<

I am so happy for you Simon!

Hi James.

The faint fragrant whiff of sweet basil/herb DID immediately endear me to this flower!

I think I have been lately comparing this odd ?clinobracteata / ?unknown seedling too much with the wrong clinobracteata seedlings, and coming up with a “no match”, based on leaflets looking so different. However, remember, I culled the one and only clinobracteata seedling which had clinophylla-style leaflets, and if I had that one to compare leaflets with this odd seedling now, I would have linked the leaflet design between the two, and made a more accurate judgement on the matter.

It is also great that we have Viru’s experienced input here!

Another really important point is that these seedlings were embryo cultured, and so I had a VERY close look at all of the seeds!

From memory, the 12 clinobracteata seeds and the viable embryos all looked extremely similar (I can put money on this!). Likewise the 20 clinophylla seeds and the viable embryos were also extremely uniform in appearance, and totally distinct/unmistakably different to the clinobracteata.

Any contaminant seed would have almost 100% certainly captured my attention, it was just not the case.

Also I am inclined to think that the embryo culture of these clinobracteata embryos also adds some interesting observations in this case.

Of the six clinobracteata embryos, germinations were so fast for all of them that they broke all my records!!

The first clinobracteata embryo converted into a sprouted seedling in potting mix by day 3 from its embryo extraction…and it was closely followed the next day by the embryo of this odd seedling, which sprouted as a seedling in seed raising mix by day 4!!

This conversion from extracted embryo to sprouted seedling occurred at an astonishing speed (the remaining three clinobracteata converted into sprouted seedlings just a few days afterwards, which was also extremely fast in my experience).

This uniform break-speed pattern which all these 5 embryos uniformly showed, is way too far out from the norm, at least from what I have normally encountered in my embryo work. I believe this does give some small support to the notion that all 5 embryos had the same parentage.

The embryos also looked very similar as they started to sprout in the jar…this is also evidence that can show up a differnet parentage, very often embryos have a characteristic look about them when compared from one OP source to a different parentage OP source. At least that has been my experience in this matter.

Note that the R.clinophylla embryos all took weeks to convert to sprouted seedlings, which serves as one point of difference, also as embryos they looked totally different to clinobracteata embryos, despite genetic similarity.

It is not the first time however that I have noticed that embryos from a particular parentage sometimes seem to have a characteristic lag time before the first germination of the colony starts, when compared with embryos of different parentage. Mutabilis X OP embryos for example seem to take a whole lot longer to start sprouting compared to say Sea Foam (triploid climber) X OP embryos, under the same weather/culture conditions.

In the mean time, the only thing I can think of culturally that might cause an improvement to this seedling’s health is to transplant it to a position with a much higher air flow, in a different part of the garden.

Sydney gets frequently hit with north-easterly winds from the Tasman sea, these are especially welcome (and anticipated with some regularity) on a hot summer’s afternoon!

BUT, I am worried that we are already too far into the spring cycle, and fret that we might get some sudden heat spell in the next couple of weeks.

Hmmmmmm… off to visit the rose garden now…

I moved it to a high air flow part of the garden. This new position also receives something like 6-8 hours of direct sun daily in winter, and of course a whole lot more in summer!

It had made very little additional root growth from the time I planted it in the earth many months ago. However I was encouraged to see one vigorous shoot just starting to emerge very basally (still transluscent and just below the soil surface). Luckily the root ball was holding onto the soil, so I guess there is very minimal risk of transplant shock happening.

One question I thought about yesterday whilst looking at it was, could this be a dwarf clinobracteata?

Sure seems unlikely it could be a dwarf clino-bracteata with those stipules and with the flower architecture, which is pretty typical China. On HMF, take a look at Miss Lowe’s Variety

and at R. chinensis f. spontanea

Then look at these for a comparison. R. clinophylla and R. bracteata have distinct bracts that curl up over the buds. They also have very distinct stipules. R. clinophylla’s are shown in the link below: they flare in a distinctive triangular way that is the opposite of most dilated stipules, wider at the base, narrower at the top, and have appendages of differing lengths, longer from top, shorter at the bottom. Bracteata can have little thready stipules, pretty much all auricles,

These are both links to R. bracteata closeups. You have to search out the stipules, which aren’t very clear.


Hi Cass. Thanks for the additional information / input.

Let me go to the garden and check those stipules in the link against on my own confirmed R.clinophylla seedlings…

I MUST get a camera to show outdoor stuff!!!

Viru has commented that the flower reminds him of a Clinophylla derivative?!