So…I obtained Burgundy Iceberg. Didn’t realize that it primarily passed on white. If I worked with it for a few generations, could some interesting results be achieved?
Since it’s basically the parent-sport as far as its gametes are concerned, I say she’s still got it even after all these years! I’ve NEVER regretted having Iceberg around, and it’s still getting used in programs around the world. Since it thrives across such a wide range of climates with just the littlest encouragement, I can see why.
I too got Burgundy Iceburg before knowing the mutation was strictly “one level”, but if taken in a different direction than previous breeding programs, why wouldn’t this sport prove useful it’s own right?
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I’d assume it’s some “dominant white” gene/s or something at play (kind of like how some species will give white regardless of other parent) and the sports just deactivate those to varying degree’s.
There are a few offspring of Iceberg that aren’t white, so it seems possible, just uncommon.
eg 'Rose Clos Vougeot ®' Rose
More a case if Iceberg has anything besides colour that you like, otherwise you’re just breeding it in to breed it out over several generations
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I guess what I’m truly asking is if Iceberg has other merits to warrant using it. I don’t DISLIKE white, but it’s not what I’m primarily going for. If it provides good form or disease resistance though, I’d be fine working with it.
If you can keep it alive and happy there, I think that you could probably make good use of it. The long list of descendants for Iceberg/‘Korbin’ practically speaks for itself–but you should probably cross it with highly colored roses if you are trying to avoid white or pale-colored offspring in the first generation or two. There are plenty of colorful roses that count Iceberg as an ancestor, especially after the first generation. It might be worth noting that without it, David Austin’s body of work (and everything that has followed it) would look very different; there would have been no Heritage or Graham Thomas.
Stefan
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I noticed this reverted section went right into the stamens and changed their colour, clearing them out to white like the ancestral sport-parent, Iceburg. Following my unscheduled train of thought, those unchanged stamens are clearly very different in pigmentation, and I cannot help but think the mutation changing their colour would run into the anthers, pollen and gametes…
…wouldn’t they? Or is it simply a fully-altered phenotype, because stamens get converted to petals with increased doubleness, and the genetic code-change doesn’t reach the gametes?
Biology is so complicated.
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They may, or they may not. Mutations very often are only “skin deep”, altering the appearance of the plant, whether it’s coloring, climbing v. bush, number of petals, flower size, etc. Sometimes, the mutation runs down to the sexual level and transmits via sexual reproduction. New Dawn’s repeat flowering is an example of that depth. Ralph Moore played with Queen Elizabeth as well as Dr. Lammerts’ Alpha Ray (I believe he said, it’s been several decades since I last heard him comment about them) radiation induced White Queen Elizabeth. He stated you could not tell seedlings from one from seedlings of the other.
Anyway, you’ll never know until you experiment to see if you can discover the answer. It’s the only way new information, new knowledge is uncovered. My guess would be you shouldn’t see any major differences from the more highly pigmented pollen than from the “original recipe”. Of course I could be completely wrong, but you never know until you try. . Biology attempts to make itself complicated, but the more you explore it, the more it reveals to you about how to work with its “grammar”. For the most part, do what you find interesting and pay attention to the biology so you might be able to find suitable ways of describing or explaining what you observe, but, again, as Mr. Moore loved to say, “the rose will find the way”, and “Roses CAN’T read!”. Good luck!
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Kim (?), I have traditionally come up nada trying to germinate Iceburg seed, but I selfed a fully-pigmented flower of my BurgIce, and I’ll toss around some pollen from its darkest flowers onto some of my more plastic mothers.
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