Hey Plazbo,
Have you tried to breed with rosa rubiginosa or it’s hybrids such as Lord and Lady Penzance? I am planning to breed with it this or next year. Still have to buy a few plants… what is your goal here? Are you trying to get garden roses with scented leaves? Nobody every succeeded although I believe I have some idea (on the long term) for this. :-p But the future will tell. 
Very interested in your program!!
cheers,
Dane.
I have seed from them but only at the beginning of when germination happens for me. Its been mentioned on here that rubingnosa seeds take more than a year to germinate too, so first results may not be til next year. Have done a bit of experimenting with OP seed to see if cutting into the seed speeds up the process or not.
Foilage fragrance on a more manageable plant is the goal. The meiosis can be messed with, possibly, I mean magnifca seemed to pass it paternally and lead to goldbusch > applejack (but i don’t have access to any of that otherwise they’d be used too), theres a bunch of holes in that family tree though so its a bit of a guessing game. Im basically just breeding with glandular and as diversely as possible to see if anything leads to disrupting the meiosis or leads to passing via pollen and doesnt corrupt the scent too much, would rather keep things more apple/sweet than head towards woodsy.
Will just keep playing around with it, learning along the way.
dgermeys;
Lord and Lady Penzance have been around since 1894 and have no offspring to show, it might be a reason not to pursue this line of breeding.
Thank you for the cautonary notes re supermarket minis. Might an acceptable defense be that the three varieties I’ve mentioned: Karina Parade, Gigi Parade, and Carmen Parade have very small foliage and short internode length. I am aware that the supermarket sells larger ones, usually in 5" pots rather than 3", but those are, for example, in Poulsen’s Hit Series or Palace Series, and all of those have larger foliage and internodes. I also am of the belief that pot plants are grown without plant growth regulators (PGRs) so the size I see is representative of the size I’ll get. Am I just rationalizing?
I don’t know. You’ll have to try it and see how they work. Many of the ones I’ve used had no indication which series they were. Just color tags to show what color they should be.
Possibly. I know Id be using different roses if the options where here. On the same token though, Greenmantle doesn’t have any offspring listed either but there are people who’ve posted on these forums with results so it may be the difficulty of getting modern marketable features or extreme similarity the offspring tend to have thats resulted in nothing worth mentioning.
Most of the smaller grocery store minis are probably parade roses from Aldershot. If you are fortunate, you can probably ID them at their site as one of the currently available cultivars. http://www.aldershotgreenhouses.com/product.php?nv=75&prod=17&act=p7menu1
Note that they offer different cultivars for 4 and 6 inch pots. I assume it’s a function of the size at which they finish with a full flush of blooms.
They have changed out a few over the last several years, apparently. I had i.d.'ed one I got a few years ago that is not offered now.
While it has never lasted for me, I did pick up another Lamy for $1 recently. We’ll see if it survives or performs this time 'round…
What’s current best practice for whether it’s worth pollinating the first flush’s bloom. A couple decades ago, conventional wisdom was that take rate is low and it’s wise to wait for the 2nd bloom.
Also, what’s current best practice for fertilizing females for the rest of the season after you’ve pollinated?
I am contemplating taking a no-labeling approach to my bgredding this year. It will enable me to make more crosses in my limited time as well as ensure a ready supply of the pollen best available at the time. Of course, when I harvest the seeds, I’ll label the baggies with the name of the female, so I can see which females generate the best results. So given my breeding goal (healthy windowbox plants with red well-formed flowers), my male jar will simply be filled with the best red microminis sold in 4" pots at the supermarket, Trader Joe’s or Big Box store. Sometimes, even within the same plant, some flowers have only 20 petals while others have 30. I’ll take pollen only from the 30-petaled flower. What do you think?
An other factor to consider with supermarket minis is that some growers use growth regulating hormones to keep them small and promote blooming at a small size. The objective is the same as for growing poultry, you want get them to market quickly with as little labor as possible.
I tried a few Poulson and Kordes minis one year and the problem I ran into was apparent sterility. They didn’t make it through winter so I don’t know if that was a one-off or they were maybe triploid?
If you want a productive breeder for true minis then go for the Moore roses. Anytime has a good track record. I favor Joycie for the color but it’s tender and not a prolific bloomer in my climate.
It would be fun if some were triploids. Golden Angel is triploid and very fertile Two rather interesting results from it are these. 'Golden Angel X “R. Soulieana - Ralph Moore’s putative version”' Rose 'Golden Angelcalnana' Rose Which is why I pushed it further with this. Golden Angel X (1-72-1Hugonis). 'GAX1-72-1Hugonis' Rose Jim Sproul’s L56-1 breeds like a fertile triploid and has successfully crossed with R. Minutifolia; Puzzlement (apparently Stellata mirifica X Fedtschenkoana) and Basye’s Amphidiploid 86-3, the Banksiae X Laevigata cross. Golden Horizon is triploid and also mixed successfully with 86-3. 'GHX86-3' Rose But, so has tetrapolid Cal Poly. 'CPX86-3' Rose And triploid Lynnie. 'Lynnie863' Rose There are Lynnie X Minutifolia; Lynnie X Arkansana “Peppermint”, Lynnie X 1-72-1 Hugonis, which is about to flower for the first time.
I have been getting significantly greater results using triploid minis with these odd things than I ever did with diploids and tetraploids.
I have indeed used a no-labeling approach: mixing best supermarket minis (Gigi Parade, an unnamed 40-petaled-good-form orange, Karina Parade, an unnamed pink-and-white 40-petaled good form from Por La Mar plus Red Sunblaze) onto Oso Easy Italian Ice (35/40 takes and by the size of the hips, it wlll have ~7 seeds per hip) Red Pixie (12/16 takes–7 per hip), Pinkerbelle (8/8 takes, ~12 per hip) young plants of Sheer Elegance (4/4, ~12 per hip, Kashmir (4/4 takes, ~3 per hip), Oso Easy Urban Legend (3/3 takes, 3 per hip), Pink Supreme Flower Carpet (too early to tell)
I like the no-label approach. Not only does it save time but ensures a ready supply of fresh pollen. Of course, I don’t get the benefit of seeing which pollen parents produce but still can adjust next year’s crop based on the performance of the various femaies.
I have chosen, perhaps incorrectly, to avoid working with species. It is my guess that the females I’ve chosen have represented the result of disease-resistance oriented breeders’ efforts to use species. I’d rather stand on the shoulders of such giants as Ping Lim, Chris Warner, Noack, and David Slezak than to start from scratch.
My plan is to harvest slightly before full-ripening to avoid birds and squirrels eating them (November), shell them and fridge-stratify until January (good planting time here in the S.F. Bay Area,) plant them two to a bottomliess 2"-wide x 3"-deep bottomless pots, placed on standard nursery flats, labeling each pot with a grease pencil abbreviating the seed parent, e.g., P for Pinkerbelle.
So here it is almost July 1 and I think I may have a plan. Our wretched cold spring with repeated frosts, followed by sudden heat led to some odd replanning. Or non-planning, and certainly some unplanning.
Might I suggest to mnemko that my 13-1 is worth consideration. Here’s why. It came out of a cross of Orange surprise x First impression. Orsup was a cross of PS (Carefree Beauty x RiseNShine) x Carefree Copper ( Carefree Beauty x Austrian copper). I’ve had it going since early 2013. It blooms when very small, as does Orsup. It is quite double, very dark yellow nearly no fade under our intense sun, even at 100+ day after day. I used it just a little as a mother plant last year right into the hot season and got a reasonable set of hips. Not many seeds per hip as there are few stigmas to pollinate. Seeds germinate. Potted into 5-7 inch pots it survived below 0 F plunged to the rim into the ground, with some leaf cover. As expected there was some freeze back on some pots, depending if the leaves got blown off before our -10 nights. But still, I have several pots that had many early blooms and still have many, despite setting a good many hips.
This year I did a lot of pollen sprinkling. I used R pomifera and Above and Beyond( both from D. Zlesak), and a large once-blooming shrub that came from a cross years ago of Carefree Beauty x Carefree Copper and now labeled 1100 (really a guess as to year) which is totally self-sterile and hasn’t yet accepted a pollen I’ve tried from whatever else in in bloom early. I tried their pollen on anything that was awake. Now I have hips from some really odd combinations. I just went out and checked that 13-1 has hips from A & B, 1100, Carefree Sunshine, Rainbow KO and my 13-2 (Golden Slippers x RKO) plus a few others. All of those avoid BS in my climate even when planted right next to Golden Slippers. Coronado and other BS magnets.
Bob Byrnes has used 13-1 I think. So far I’ve not seen disease on it. It might get mildew if you are prone to that but in a mildewy year last year I saw none. So far none of my plants have exceeded 10 inches. Of course it roots like a weed. I will start some cuttings when I can find some shoots with no hip on them. No doubt some if I look.
If anyone is interested in 13-1, let me know at ksu.edu where I am one of the early email adopters so I use my first name initial combined with my last name all lower case. If you can’t figure that out, send a PM. I think my name is Larry Davis on the list.
My overall plan is a repeat-blooming yellow shrub that gets no disease in this climate and is reasonably cold-hardy. With luck some products will be quite hardy as I work with some very northern parents. With more luck they may resist diseases in other climates too. (So far so good on that front). Breaking the linkage of BS to yellow is a challenge. 13-1 may be getting there. I know that Julia Child, Gold Struck, Garden Sun and other large-flowered double, strong yellows do not. CArefree Sunshine is as close as any so far.
I live on the by-products, things that meet most criteria except color. I keep trying.
On 4 plants I found only 9 pieces without either a hip or a flower or bud. But we’ll see how those 9 turn out.
Last fall I took cut flowers of 13-2 and stuck them into potting mix and they all grew. Some selections really root easily.
It’s been 4 months since the initial post and my plans have altered somewhat.
1 - Foliage/sepals fragrance
Still intend to pursue foilage fragrance via Lord and Lady Penzance. Have a 100+ Lord Penzance seedlings at the moment and a bunch of R. Rubiginosa OP from seed collected from feral plants in South Australia, they haven’t germinated as well as the Lord Penzance seed but it might be a little too cold for that now and might explode come winter.
1a.
As a slight offshoot of the above plan to make a line around Mousseux du Japon and Lemon Delight, with MdJ exaggerated mossing extending into it’s foliage and Lemon Delights repeat and lemon scented moss it may be beneficial to combine with R. Rubiginosa derivatives at some point. There may be a step or two between combining the two directly as both have health/vigor issues so may need a bit of [(MdJ x healthy) x (MdJ x healthy2)] x [(LD x healthy) x LD] or something along that general line. Will attempt both options to check though.
1b.
Also another slight offshoot is based around Helga Brauer, has some mossing/glandular parts and a decent amount of cresting. Will be breeding it with offspring of George Best/Firecracker as they all seem powdery mildew resistant (unlike most other seedlings I’ve grown…) and many have leafy and glandular sepals which may combine well and be a step toward reblooming scented crest…also probably want to breed out the suckering, it’s quite a heavy sucker.
1c.
And the last off shoot is based around R. Foetida, it’s fruity scented growing tips…will be throwing various Knockouts, Carefree Beauty, modern yellows, reblooming spins, anything with glandular parts, Talisman and R. sweginzowii at it. Also since it seems it’s pollen seems to throw 1n (there’s a lot of triploid offspring), will throw it’s pollen down at every diploid I own. It’s largely a scatter gun approach to see what happens, expect BS to be a big issue but if even 1 in 1000 retains the fruity scented growing tips and is better (even slightly) behaved than it’s parent it’s a success as far as I’m concerned.
2
Also plan to follow (loosely) in the steps of Dr Svejda’s early work. Lot of crosses with Schneezwerg, Calocarpa, Therese Bugnet and Fru Dagmar Hastrup with other things like polys, teas/chinas, hyb gig, the one healthy seedling of Sweet Spot Calypso (no mildew, no bs, shinier foliage)…expect a lot of sterility but as Dr Svejda showed Schneezwerg can produce (a very small amount of) fertile offspring with (some) Tea’s and Calocarpa is a fertile half china. When/If fertile results are achieved they’ll be crossed with each other trying to maintain rugrose foliage and searching for juvenile bloom.
3
The last plan is just to cross the various diploids I have with each other to increase the breeding options I have on hand in the future and also to breed the once bloomers (and non juvenile bloomers) to repeat (juvenile) bloomers, things like Golden Chersonese, R. Glauca (it’s pollen), Nieuwesteegii (R. foliolosa × R. willmottiae) and R. helenae…but also possibly the more odd thing my best coloured moderns (tets) to dips to get the colours onto triploids who’ll hopefully produce some fertile 1n pollen to backcross again down to diploid while maintaining the intended colours (eg like Baby Faurax x (Baby Faurax x Rhapsody in Blue) and maintaining a deep purple).
It’s all a bit of a big numbers game at this point, fighting against the odds but eventually all 3 paths will combine, just have to wait for the canina meosis to break with path 1 so the foliage fragrance genes can pass via pollen (relatively easy to test for) then can pull it down to diploid level. Path 2 will be obvious when juvenile blooming rugosa start appearing and then the introgression of path 3 into 2 can really start happening.
And that’s the next 30 to 40 years planned out.
Might I suggest to mnemko that my 13-1 is worth consideration. Here’s why. It came out of a cross of Orange surprise x First impression. Orsup was a cross of PS (Carefree Beauty x RiseNShine) x Carefree Copper ( Carefree Beauty x Austrian copper). I’ve had it going since early 2013. It blooms when very small, as does Orsup. It is quite double, very dark yellow nearly no fade under our intense sun, even at 100+ day after day. I used it just a little as a mother plant last year right into the hot season and got a reasonable set of hips. Not many seeds per hip as there are few stigmas to pollinate. Seeds germinate. Potted into 5-7 inch pots it survived below 0 F plunged to the rim into the ground, with some leaf cover. As expected there was some freeze back on some pots, depending if the leaves got blown off before our -10 nights. But still, I have several pots that had many early blooms and still have many, despite setting a good many hips.
Very Kind of you to offer but seems too far afield for my goal: healthy red pot plant of good form. Am I wrong?
I had taken a few years off from hybridizing and spent them sorting through seedlings and tossing quite a few out. Last year I focused on using some of my own and trying to create some additional good seed parents. My seedlings numbers are a bit out of control as I discovered that one of my own is a really good parent. 87 seedlings potted up from a cross of (C. Beauty x Distant Drums) x (Outta the Blue x Baby Love). They are giving me great variation in flower color. They so far are all quite vigorous and are clean too. It is a good thing that I spent a few years freeing up space.
This year I am back to trying to build some more good seed parents using C. Beauty, P. Harvest, and Alberta as the source of good seed parents. And I am testing a C. Beauty x Pretty Lady, and 2 Alberta x Pretty Lady seedlings to see if they make good seed parents.
For mnemko: Well, 13-1 is intense yellow, so you’d have to use a strong red at the very least. OTOH Rainbow KO as pollen donor to Playboy and Feu Josef Looymans gave the darkest reds I’ve seen. I didn’t catch from your original post that your were targeting only red. The range of potential parents looked pretty wide to me. I was focused on the part about healthy, small size and high petalage that stays on.
RKO is a single that holds petals too long, until they turn green and brown in our climate. But most recipients modulate that effect to something more reasonable. Interestingly it yields a significant number of small plants with small flowers OP in isolation so presumably selfs. Perhaps 1-2 % are yellow singles, others are more intense orange fading to pink, none are red. But interplanted with double KO, it gives a lot more seeds than on its own and some seedlings that are intense red, on initially small plants. Whether they may grow up big over years I don’t know. Not quickly for sure. Can be treated as miniatures of the KO kind, if you like that shade of red.
SO I guess I’m somewhat in favor of lateral thinking, trying new blends of potential carriers of good traits even if they aren’t showing all of them at once. Red minis are definitely not my target though I’ve seen some really fine ones. Hardiness is a question (both winter and drought) for which I have no information on red minis.
I’ve been reflecting on Larry Davis’s comment that my parents were “wide.” that is, not narrowly targeted. I thought I’d share why. I am commercially oriented–feeling better about a goal of having something introduced within my remaining years. So, I have to take a shot at creating something commercial that seems like an unmet need in the market. My guess is: windowbox roses with great looks and form that don’t need to be sprayed but will last for years. And because red, especially velvety rich, non-bluing red sells best, all things equal I’ll focus on but not to the exception of flower beauty and floriferousness and especially their not needing spraying. Hence my basic model is to use healthy, high-quality small shrubs that likely have lots of health in their backgroundm but not necessarily red (hence Peachy Knockout, Flower Carpet Pink Perfection, Red Pixie, Oso Easy Italian Ice and I’ve just gotten rooted cuttings of Mango Veranda, Oso Easy Sunsay, Pink Cupcake, and Double Pink) but also what I consider a few of the most beautiful (and ideally relatively healthy HTs: Pinkerbelle, Silver Jubilee, and what I consider the most beautiful flower: Sheer Elegance, all of which set hips well. Onto those females I used mixed pollens of the best of the currently sold supermarket pot roses especially the the velvety well-formed red: Karina Parade, the perfect-formed red and white striped Gigl Parade, and a couple of unnamed varieties (a pink-rimmed white and a pink-rimmed yellow both of excellent form and even good health (in the healthy SF Bay Area) from Por La Mar. They\ve performed very well in my garden. I had success in my last foray into breeding with Zary’s Happy Trails but I no longer have that thorny (but small) bush and can’t seem to find it. I have the common vain hope that the first generation will produce something worth sending for test to Weeks, Star, or Ping at Altman but I’m not delusional enough to hold out that much hope. So, I’d put the pollen of the worthy F1s onto the aforementioned females. Comments on any of this of course are welcome.
