Hi everyone,
I have recently been wondering about the following: Why do rose breeders spend years trying to breed (cut rose) varieties with novel colors, particularly blue-hued varieties, when white flowers can apparently be dyed into any color one wishes by simply placing the flower stems in water that contains dye? Does the use of dyed roses have any disadvantages to the consumer or the florist?
Here are three interesting references:
- I found some photos of roses that are dyed blue at:
- The following company sells orchids that are dyed blue:
http://www.silvervase.com/blue-mystique.php
- Florigene/Suntory spent many years and many millions of $ to develop mauve-colored roses and carnations through genetic engineering (these are the roses and carnations with colors closest to true blue ever bred):
http://www.florigene.com/news/news.php
Thanks!
Julian
Just my opinion, but those colors are truly appalling. (Not appealing, note) I do not understand, aside from the pathological thirst for novelty-at-any-cost, why anyone would want such a thing.
By the way, “Julian Sader” posted the exact same message on GardenWeb a couple days ago, after having joined GW on July 4th. I smell a spammer at work.
Julian,
Perhaps its a matter of perspective: you posted a message on the Rose Hybridizer’s Forum suggesting that breeding for “blue” is a questionable pursuit. (IE: a waste of time when after all, you can just dye plants for the desired color)
My apologies, but this had all the earmarks of an advertising campaign for some cheesy florist’s trickery.
Paul
I can think of several reasons, but I think foremost is ‘Why don’t people with taste and acumen just go out and buy plastic flowers’ in the desired colors? If you can answer that, you have your answer.
Why would anyone want a melon or Asian Pear grown in a Lucite box to shape it into a cube? Why would anyone want a mature tree bent, twisted and tortured into a diminutive potted plant? Why would anyone want food that smells like a locker room or old sneakers? Aesthetics and cultural differences.
Florigene marketed Applause in the Japanese market, where it is a cultural aesthetic to give expensive, manipulated gifts. Bonsai trees, cubic fruit and vegetables, “blue” roses…all represent man’s ability, time and money to bend Nature to their aesthetic. In that culture, an expensive, manipulated gift represents high honor given to the recipient. Florigene’s marketing representatives understood that and have skewed their advertising to feed that aesthetic and receive $35 a stem price for their “missed mark”.
As we here understand, some of it comes from the desire to see if we CAN do it. Most of us operate under that drive. Stripes; halos; “Eyeconic” roses; modern, genetic mosses; even Pernet’s original Penetiana types all stemmed from that “what if” to create something new and novel.
Corporate efforts may initiate from something similar, but you can be sure those millions and many years were and are driven by the $35 a stem carrot. If a really blue flower could be created, it could become a world seller, rather than one limited to a smaller market’s aesthetic. As long as someone is willing to pay the price, the product will be produced. Kim
Julian Sader breeders try achieve which may not be achievable, it is mankinds inquisitive nature which has made us what we are today. From this spring , I will be trying to create some very high ploidy roses, they probably will not have any commercial value, but it is the challege I have set my self.
“…Why do rose breeders spend years trying to breed (cut rose) varieties with novel colors, particularly blue-hued varieties, when white flowers can apparently be dyed into any color one wishes by simply placing the flower stems in water that contains dye? Does the use of dyed roses have any disadvantages to the consumer or the florist?..”
Simple, it is a challenge!
I mean why send a human to the moon if it can be artificially construed on some Hollywood movie set?
Good questions and points. Julian, I think that the hope is that blue roses would have occurred much more efficiently and quickly, less expensively, and have huge public acceptance by now. With how much some have invested so far, etc. I suspect it is hard to give up hoping for their financial return. I sure agree that the cut rose breeders are working very hard for novel colors (diverse bicolors, green roses, etc.). I see those roses going directly for basically “art” in terms of floral arrangements and a wide pallet to work with is highly valued for designers to set themselves apart. People that love to grow roses too value novel colors, but we seem to have multiple things we value and in light of that grow some of the more typical colors routinely when we can add for instance fragrance, health, hardiness, nice plant habits, long season of bloom, etc.
Len Busch roses, a wholesale cut rose producer in MN (one of the few left) grow a very nice white rose that they dye different colors. I suspect having the rose produce the pigment itself would ultimately simplify things taking a step out of the process and saving resources (labor and dye). Hopefully it would also make things more uniform if the color is genetically based. Hopefully the cost can be absorbed in the end using the genetic approach and be less than dye, labor etc. and make it all profitable.
Introducing a little twist/variation perhaps on the theme, we can spray fungicides on our roses and have healthy plants, but if our roses possess genetic resistance that is something very valuable to people and generally preferable. In this instance, we do to a large extent have the genetic potential throughout our current populations and breeders are working hard to accumulate / work with assembling resistance genes and are making great progress especially in our landscape roses.
Hey George
“Why send a human to the moon if it can be artificially construed on some hollywood movie set” I though they did George LOL
Hmmm… ok substitute mars for moon then, if ya wanna get “perfect” about it…
LOL! 
)
Hmmm… one is led to wonder if someone might be in the flower-dye selling business…
Julian,
Very few breeders actually breed for blue roses. In truth, some of it is not even specifically breeding. So the question is not specifically acuarate, even in its approach.
Hi David,
Thank you for the informative post.
You mentioned that “Hopefully it would also make things more uniform if the color is genetically based.”
Do I understand correctly that the results of using dye is therefore not predictable and uniform? (Even when done by a professional florist?) If a florist dyes flowers, can all the dyed flowers be sold, or will some of them be duds?
(My only experience with dyeing flowers was in primary school, so I don’t know whether florists have better ways of dyeing flowers. The orchid website that I linked to in my original post mentions that the company developed some new method for dyeing orchids.)
The dyed white moth orchids sold everywhere are not uniform whatsoever. A different cultivar would have to be used for the dye to uniform.
Hi Julian!
That’s a great question about uniformity. The dyed roses by Len Busch seem pretty uniform. Sometimes though sections of vascular tissue may not take it up evenly, etc. and the color may be a bit ununiform. It seems more common with chrysanthemum flowers at the florist. Roses seem more uniform. One drawback with the blue and magenta dyes that are used for the roses (and mums) is that the stems and leaves have the dye too and it can look even less natural. Often the flowers are in mixed bouquets and other things in the bouquet makes it less obvious.
There are those water soluble dyes that can be sprayed on that are used for poinsettias. I wonder if the orchids use that. This works great, but with roses that are tight and unfurl, the inner petals do not get covered. Maybe that would be pretty though. At a florist shop maybe as a rose a little open is ready to sell in an arrangement, maybe enough of the petals can be treated that as it continues to open it could have a bit of a Double Delight look with the red forming in sunshine and as it continues to open at night or on a cloudy day it the unhit petals are white or creamy colored. I wonder how effectively the dye can mimmic that with the inner petal tissue being white or whatever the starting color is, and the outer treated petal sections looking different based on the dye used.
It seems like having novelty that is at least somewhat attractive is a great way for businesses to add extra value and set themselves apart, especially in our tight economic environment. As I interact with friends in the nursery business and other places it seems like seasons of economic concern are ultimately great for innovation. People are thankful for their jobs, they are encouraged to be creative and thoughtful by their employers, etc., and are willing to work hard. Sometimes during better times there seems to be more room for complacency and less of a valuing of the ideas and true teamwork by management. In good times it is easier for some managers at the reigns to choose to limit input and ideas from their team and work less as a team because of lack of incentive from their perspective to take the time and effort or ego.
Improved dyes sure have had an impact in the poinsettia market. I bet for the general bulk of cut roses and other flowers the natural colors of the varieties grown will continue to be how cuts are sold and predominate.
Hmmm. How about a soluble rose scented perfume that could be cheap enough and nice enough to be sprayed on roses and other plants to add extra value??