Beginner Questions

[Roselynn]

Hello fellow rose enthusiasts,

I want to say thank you for all the helpful information on here, I have been a lurker for many years now and am interested in getting into rose breeding.

I’ve started with reading the beginner’s RHA booklet, looking up lineages on HelpMeFind, reading this forum, and general research. There is so much information out there, I don’t know where to start! I was wondering if anyone would be able to help with a few beginner questions I have?

1. Are there any other resources (books, websites) other than this forum, which describe what roses work well as seed or pollen parents?

2. What does OP stand for?

3. Does ploidy truly matter? For example, will mixing a diploid with a tetraploid work? I’ve come across some research articles, but am having a hard time understanding with my lack of vocabulary (which I hope will improve as I learn more).

My first goal is just to have fun and figure out how to grow roses from seed. My second goal is to create something that is worth registering one day, perhaps a fragrant hardy rose with shiny foliage. My main focus is on fragrance as I find many of the newer hardy roses I have are lacking in this.

Some roses I have which I would like to use include: Turbo, Hansaland, Therese Bugnet, Blanc de Double Coubert, Snow Pavement, Scarlet Pavement, Rugelda, Prairie Peace, Wasagaming, Polareis (aka Polar Ice or Ritausma), Winnipeg Parks, and Cuthbert Grant. I also have access to pollen from Grootendorst Pink, Grootendorst Red, and Hansa. There are so many possible combinations!

Lastly, is there anything you would have done differently when you started breeding? I appreciate any tips you may have to offer, and am grateful for any answers you have time to provide,

Roselynn (Yes, Rose is also in my name!)

[mwesson]

Welcome Roselynn!

To start with your questions, this site and HelpMeFind (HMF) are the best resources I know for finding out about good seed and pollen parents. That’s an issue that gets discussed a lot here, and searches of this site will provide an enormous amount of information. OP stands for open pollination, which simply means that a hip has formed without being manually pollinated. Normally such seeds will have been pollinated by the rose which forms the hip (the same rose will be mother and father), but not always. Triploid roses (those created by crossing diploids and tetraploids) have a reputation for being infertile, and many are in varying degrees, but many are also tremendously fertile, such as some of Ralph Moore’s miniatures. Search this site for Golden Angel, for instance, and see how often it’s been used. It’s triploid and very fertile.

Please let us know where you’re located. It makes a big difference. Judging by the roses you list I’d guess you’re a northern gardener. Much of my advice wouldn’t apply to you (I’m in the deep south, on the Mississippi coast). There are many others here who are growing in conditions more like yours. Several of our members have blogs and websites which provide a lot of wonderful information. I’ll try to post some links for you.

Good luck!

Mark

[mwesson]

Paul Barden is one of our members who is inactive at the moment. He has both a blog and a website that contain a lot of great information.

http://www.paulbardenroses.com/

Paul Barden Roses

Jim Sproul has several roses in commerce and is doing a lot of work with hulthemias.

Rose Hybridizing

I think of Kim Rupert and Tom Silver as mad scientists, mixing things that have never been mixed before and creating some wonderful things.

http://pushingtheroseenvelope.blogspot.com/
http://maprc.blogspot.com/

[Roselynn]

Hello Mark,

Thank you so much for your the explanation of ploidy, OP, and for the amazing links! I have save them to my bookmarks and will be going through them. I also just bought the Next Step Booklet from RHA, and my head is dizzy from information but I think I’m starting to get it.

I am glad it is possible to cross diploids with tetraploids, thank you for your explanation. It sounds like a how a horse x donkey = mule?

I realized my signature does not show on the mobile site. I am located in USDA Zone 3b; north of Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I am in the prairies near the Rocky Mountain foothills; we get Chinook winds in the winter which means fluctuating temperatures, and are about 3500 feet above sea level which results in typically dry and windy conditions. That, combined with the short growing season makes it a challenge to grown almost anything, so selecting vigorous plants is key. I am fortunate to have a very sheltered south facing yard with protected micro climate. Soil here is usually clay-based and alkaline, but most of mine is amended now with coarse sand and organic matter. My town water is very alkaline.

I like many attributes of the roses I grow, but want to tweak them slightly. For example, if Therese Bugnet could have a more refined bloom form, if Turbo could be fragrant, or if Snow Pavement or Winnipeg Parks could have glossy leaves.

Some initial for ideas I have for combinations are:
Turbo with: Therese Bugnet, Snow Pavement, Blanc de Double Coubert or Rugelda
Therese Bugnet with: Rugelda, Snow Pavement, Polareis, Winnipeg Parks
Hansaland with: Blanc de Double Coubert, Therese Bugnet, Snow Pavement or Wasagaming
Snow Pavement with Blanc de Double Coubert (with the goal to create a fragrance bomb!)

Thank you again for your input Mark. If anyone else wants to chime in on the above combinations, any pointers are much appreciated!

Roselynn

[henry_kuska]

The link here leads to free Canadian Rose Annuals.

https://archive.org/details/canadianrosesociety

[Paul_Olsen]

Roselynn,

Since you live in a tough climate, I would get to know the native rose species that grow in your area and use them in your breeding programs. Rosa woodsii (a diploid), for example, combines easily with Rugosas. Of course some of this work has already been done by Canadian Prairie rose breeders. Robert Erskine’s ‘Carlos Dawn’ (‘Hansa’ x Rosa woodsii), for example.

It appears you don’t live too far from Olds College. It has a good rose garden, so it would be an excellent source for pollen from cultivars you don’t have. I think the staff will accommodate you in that respect.

The Brooks, Alberta rose garden also has a very good collection of Spinosissima cultivars.

I would stay away from combining ‘Therese Bugnet’ with modern shrub roses like ‘Rugelda’ and ‘Winnipeg Parks’, since the quality of the progeny will likely be poor and not disease resistant. I think you would have much better luck using the former with Rugosas. For one thing all are diploids and also cold hardiness can be maintained in the seedlings.

The Rugosas you listed crossed with ‘Hansa’ should produce seedlings having very good fragrance.

‘Rugelda’ x ‘Prairie Peace’ and ‘Winnipeg Parks’ x ‘Prairie Peace’ would be good crosses to make. It’s difficult to ignore ‘Winnipeg Parks’ in a breeding program, because it’s very fertile as a pistillate parent and the hips are quite large.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[henry_kuska]

More reading (could have some duplicates):

http://canadianrosesociety.org/Portals/0/Private/2010/CRS_Annual_Index_1955-2008.PDF (suggested by Margit Schowalter)

gewewe.pdf

http://www3.sympatico.ca/mor-pol/sections/auteurs.pdf

http://www.theprairiegarden.ca/PDFs/2008pgtoc.pdf

http://www.icangarden.com/uploaddocuments/d4804+Roses%20Canada%20authors%201-10.pdf

http://canadianrosesociety.org/Portals/0/Private/2010/CRS_Annual_Author_Index_1955_2008.pdf

http://www.theprairiegarden.ca/2008.html

http://www.harrymcgee.2kseo.com/Rosebank_authors_index.htm

Winter Hardyness Experiences - Rose Hybridizers Association Forum discusses a book: ‘Growing Roses in Saskatchewan’ Request Rejected
Request Rejected

http://gardenermagazine.ca/gardenerindex.pdf

The Canadian rose annual. -- 2005 : Canadian Rose Society : Free Download,...

[Roselynn]

Paul, thank you! I feel pressure to get a cross done this week with the short growing season if I want the hips to ripen before winter comes. This is my third year into growing roses, when I started I always wanted to get into breeding. I got excited last night and created a spreadsheet (attached below) of everything I have available. Ploidy and parent info is based on HMF, and disease and fragrance based on my own observations. There are gaps as I haven’t figured it out yet. If anyone would like to make suggestions, any help with choosing a first few crosses is greatly appreciated.

At this point it looks like I am aiming for more refined fragrant rugosa… or getting some fragrance into the modern roses.

Another rose I have which is very interesting is Michel Trudeau (purchased from Sunnyside Garden Center in Calgary). It has the most brilliant red foliage in the fall, even brighter than Therese Bugnet.

Mark, fortunately I have some OP (thank you for clarifying this term) hips which have set on Winnipeg Parks and Rosa Acicularis which I can at least play around with.

Paul, great idea on contacting Olds College, I had not thought about that! Olds College is where I originally obtained suckers of Prairie Peace from, for a very modest price. I usually drop by there a few times a year. A few weeks ago all their roses were in bloom, I am sure if I ask they won’t mind if I collect some pollen. They have Maigold, Metis, Tuscany Superba and Willian Baffin there, which I would also love to experiment with. They also had some very vigourous John Davis which were in very full bloom. We had a mild winter here so growth on most roses this year is absolutely amazing (for example, I came across these in central Calgary, 'Morden Centennial' Rose Photo).

I discovered last week another amazing public garden in Calgary which contains a decent established collection of roses - the Botanical Gardens of Silver Springs, botanicalgardensofsilversprings.ca. They had Persian Yellow, and many of the Morden and Parkland varieties. It is volunteer run and the gardens were well kept and tidy.

I have not been to the Brooks Rose Garden yet, but also read volunteers help to maintain it, I would love to go there one day, I think they have Prairie Peace as well (http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/opp4386/$FILE/rosegarden.pdf).

In my excitement, I added more photos and captions to HMF, you can also find me under HMF people as ‘prairie_northrose.’ Sometimes I add photos of plants in the garden centers, while others are from my own collection.

Henry, thank you for the fantastic resources! Ahh, I completely forgot about the Prairie Garden magazine! You have some of the best information, I have long followed your posts on Garden Web, and have saved and read many of your links. I am also in a spray-free garden and enjoy reading research articles in my spare time.

If anyone can help clarify, here are a few other beginner questions:

1. There are roses I have listed on HMF as “Hybrid Rugosa,” with no description of ploidy (ex. Snow Pavement, Rugelda, Hansaland). Does this mean they are not diploid, and could be anything? Or could they be diploid? Does a more complicated parentage usually suggest anything other than diploid?

2. Are the ploidy descriptions on HMF reliable?

Thank you to everyone for your tremendous help so far!!! Hopefully I will have some planned crosses done by the end of the week. Some roses are about to enter their first flush, while others are gearing up for their second.

If you have suggestions for crosses based on my attached list, feel free to let me know.

[Paul_Olsen]

Roselynn,

In response to a couple of your questions:

1. HMF Roses ploidy information is reliable.

2. ‘Rugelda’ and ‘Hansaland’ roses - it’s a big stretch to call them Rugosas and so I don’t do it. In my opinion, a Rugosa hybrid has to have at least 50% Rosa rugosa in its parentage and these two cultivars clearly don’t. ‘Snow Pavement’ is a diploid.

It’s been demonstrated that Rosa acicularis in several locations on the Prairies and into the Boreal forest are tetraploids, so I would treat the one you have this way.

You’re fotunate to perhaps being able to access ‘Maigold’ pollen from Olds College. Although it winter kills severely at this location, it’s my understanding it can put out a few flowers in some years.

One of the best collections of cold hardy (Zone 2) rose cultivars and species is at the Jim and Elizabeth Coutts farm, which is located near Unity, Saskatchewan. Extensive rose breeding is done there. Some of my rose cultivars/selections are located there. You will have to visit sometime, preferably in early spring. Be prepared to go home with some roses for your breeding programs.

You may want to go to Brooks in the fall to collect op hips from some of the roses. The species Rosa laxa, for example.

Here are some suggestions for breeding based on your list of roses:

Bill Reid x Morden Sunrise/Campfire/Frontenac/Prairie Peace/Rosa acicularis
Morden Sunrise x Prairie Peace/Frontenac/Campfire/Bill Reid/Rosa acicularis
Emily Carr x Frontenac/Champlain
Morden Centennial x Frontenac/John Cabot/Champlain/Rosa acicularis
Quadra x Champlain
Winnipeg Parks x Prairie Peace/Frontenac/Rosa acicularis
Rugelda x Prairie Peace/Rosa acicularis
Michel Trudeau x Rosa woodsii/ Hansa/Marie Bugnet/Blanc Double de Coubert/Metis (for fall foliage)
Snow Pavement x Rosa woodsii/Marie Bugnet/Hansa/Michel Trudeau/Hansa/Blanc Double de Coubert
Hansa x Marie Bugnet/Michel Trudeau/Blanc Double de Coubert/Snow Pavement

Do you have Rosa arkansana growing in your area?

[henry_kuska]

This is my best home hybridized rugosa. Sorry we cannot trade with Canada.

'White Alzbeta Kuska' Rose

I recommend Will Alderman as a parent as I feel it is the best rugosa that I have come across.

There is a diploid acicularis (originally from Japan). It can be hard to find. I got mine (in seed form) from a Washington D.C. public garden (a friend sent the seeds to me). That person is no longer an active hybridizer. I am retired from hybridizing and no longer have it.

[Roselynn]

Henry, thank you for the table of contents for the Prairie Garden magazine, it looks very relevant and I will be planning to purchase it. Paul, it is nice to know you are the guest editor for this volume!

The name of the article “Altai Scotch Rose – an Important Component in Hardy Rose Breeding” by Hugh Skinner caught my attention. In my neighborhood, there is are plenty of what I think is Altai Scotch ('R. spinosissima var. altaica' Rose). I live in an older part of town where gardening has always been popular. There are several houses built in the early to mid 1900s with what looks like Altai Scotch established. Suckers looks to have been passed on from home to home, and it is growing in the back alleys too. It flowers once, early, and in abundance, with single heart shaped ivory white petals.

Thank you Henry for the photo of ‘White Alzbeta Kuska,’ I love the tidier bloom form! Martin Frobisher is available at Olds College, I might ask for some pollen one day. I’ll keep my eye open for Will Alderman, I may have seen it at Olds College or somewhere similar if I remember correctly.

Paul, thank you for your opinion on what should constitute a rugosa, I completely agree. Yes I thought it was funny that Rugelda is also marketed as Rugelda Pavement, it is very different from others in the pavement series.

Maigold looked great at Olds College this year, I should have taken a photo. A lovely intense golden colour similar to Bill Reid. I like your idea of collecting OP hips, it will give me something to practice with if these crosses don’t work. Thank you for the info on ploidy of Snow Pavement. I am unsure if we have Rosa arkansana in my area. We go on many day trips, I will keep my eyes open. I’ll separately post some photos of what I think is acicularis in our area.

Thank you so much for the suggested crosses, those are some great ideas! This morning I went out and started collecting pollen, following the RHA guide. I’ve successfully pollinated a giant pumpkin before, pollen on roses seems less abundant.

I am going along with the RHA booklet instructions. Here are some photos of some practice blooms I thought looked good today, and am curious if I may have gotten them ready too soon?:



A few other beginner questions:

• For collecting pollen, Is it better to cut the whole stem of the rose and allowing the flower to mature entirely, before cutting off the flower and pulling off petals?

Should sepals be removed when waiting for pollen to ripen?

If HMF lists a rose with no descendants, does this generally imply it is infertile, or suggest no one has used it yet?

What does one prefer to do with leftover petals?

Thank you kindly to everyone for any answers at all, I truly do appreciate the help,

Roselynn

[jbergeson]

Hi Roselynn!

For collecting pollen, I break off flower buds in the evening that seem like they’ll open in the morning. Basically the fattest possible unopened buds. Then my daughter rips off sepals and petals and I pull off the anthers into a coffee mug, using tweezers or my fingers. I usually blow a fan gently on the coffee mugs overnight. In the morning I take the mug with a paintbrush out to the roses that I want to pollinate. At 6:30 to 7:30 am blossoms have opened but their pollen has mostly not yet released, so I emasculate freshly opened blossoms and apply the pollen immediately. I’m not too worried if a few self-pollinations occur. I try to apply enough pollen to create what I call ‘overwhelming firepower.’

It should perhaps be noted that it might be important not to remove the sepals on the blossoms of the seed parent, as sepals may have some function in ensuring that the hip does not abort.

In regards to your question about the petals, sometimes my daughter and I will put them all in a bowl and go outside on the deck where she dumps them over my head.

-Joe

[Paul_Olsen]

Roselynn,

Regarding your ‘Hansa’ flower, it appears you removed it at the perfect time to collect the anthers. The flower would have likely opened he next day.

Keep in mind that some rose cultivars work as well as a pistillate and a staminate parent. So if you want to use the cultivar as a pistillate parent and don’t have a lot of flowers on the shrub, it’s not necessary to remove them for the anthers. Just bend the flowers over a container or aluminum foil (I use the latter) to catch the anthers when they are being removed.

By the way, the index finger is the most efficient way to apply pollen on the stamens.

"If HMF lists a rose with no descendants, does this imply it is infertile, or suggest no one has used it yet?

If it is a new cultivar, of course its descendants are going to be nil or limited in number. Other than that, infertility as a pistillate parent or lack of pollen viability as a staminate parent can be the problem. But sometimes it’s a situation where the cultivar hasn’t been used or used very little. Or the seedlings are always of poor quality. On the other hand, some cultivars like ‘Cape Diamond’, for example, should never have been introduced (vicious sprawling plant with medium pink flowers), so it shouldn’t have been a descendant of the Explorer Rosa kordesii ‘Marie-Victorin’.

‘Morden Centennial’, for example, an excellent rose for a beginner to work with. I believe that HMF Roses only lists one descendant. In my opinion, based on my experience with it, there is no reason why there can’t be a lot more. I think it’s just a matter of not enough breeders working with it.

Another example is ‘Will Alderman’, an excellent Rugosa. There should have been several descendants of it developed a long time ago but it didn’t happen. Again, a matter of not enough breeders working with it. Or perhaps a single breeder not persevering enough with it.

In the end, even if there aren’t any descendants of a rose cultivar but you think it has potential in a breeding program, go for it. If it works, great. If not, you will have the personal satisfaction of finding this out for yourself.

[Roselynn]

Joe & Paul, thank you for the great tips! Sounds like fun to get the kids involved in pollinating plants, and I am glad the timing I am picking these blooms is on par.

I did some of my first crosses this morning:

Winnipeg Parks x Morden Sunrise
Winnipeg Parks x Turbo (sadly there was very little pollen from Turbo, I’ll try anyways)
Prairie Joy x Morden Sunrise
Bill Reid x Morden Sunrise, thank you Paul for the suggestion

Morden Sunrise gives plenty of pollen. Although it does get black spot for me, it does have a pleasing fruity fragrance.

I have six plants of Winnipeg Parks which are in continuous bloom, it will be easy for me to start practicing with it as a seed parent. Their growth is vigorous for me, the blooms are huge and moderately fragrant, but leaves do get black spot at the end of the season. Last year, they had some of better OP hips, each one having about 15-20 seeds.

I was able to collect decent amounts of pollen from Therese Bugnet, Snow Pavement, Blanc Double de Coubert, and Hansa. Marie Bugnet, Sir Thomas Lipton & Polareis had smaller amounts of pollen. Unfortunately I didn’t have many diploids ready to receive pollen. Paul, I’ll try just cutting off the anthers next time, perhaps that will allow more pistillate parents to be available. It takes little fingers of elves to do this work!

Morden Centennial is a lovely rose, although again I have seen it in the garden centers with black spot (which I read is typical of the Parkland roses). I have a bloom which will open in a couple of days, I might save some pollen and give it a try. Here is a magnificent row of Morden Centennials I came across a few weeks ago in Calgary, AB. There was no die back this year due to one of the most mild winters we’ve had in this area:

[Roselynn]

Thank you to everyone for the helpful suggestions! I did some more crosses this morning:

more Prairie Joy x Morden Sunrise (thank you Joe for inspiring me on this one, I’ve seen your post of this cross and it is stunning!)
Morden Sunrise x Bill Reid
Therese Bugnet x Polareis
Therese Bugnet x Snow Pavement
Snow Pavement x Marie Bugnet
Quadra x Champlain

[Paul_Olsen]

Roselynn,

I’m curious if you keep a few rose cultivars in containers for breeding purposes. It’s ideal to do in a short season climate as yours, so they can be put in a greenhouse/sun room in the fall to mature hips of late crosses. Also, of course, to defeat inclement weather that can inhibit or wreak havoc with the breeding process, when the shrubs have planted in the ground. I like to use 5 gal. nursery containers, but if I’m short of them I’ll use plastic or metal pails. Holes punched in the bottom of them for drainage, of course.

[John_Moe]

Roselynn,
Looks like you are making some interesting crosses. Now the first part of the waiting period begins - watching those hips swell and ripen! As far north as you are, be ever mindful of the time, particularly if you are working outside with plants in the ground. As often written, figure on 90 - 120 days for that so, as Paul just mentioned, you are in a short season. Of course, we may have another mild winter, but we never can rely on Mother Nature. I’m sure that Paul can give you more info on your zone 3b growing season. The best of luck for your crosses.
John Moe

[jbergeson]

Those are some stunning banks of Morden Centennial. I’ve never seen the like.

I was going to dig through my pics to show you a PJ x Morden Sunrise seedling when I read your next mention of it…yes, that cross makes some lovely seedlings (sadly quite blackspot prone).

Winnipeg Parks is a great rose to begin making crosses with. It makes fat hips with lots of seeds, and seedlings with lovely blossoms. Again, unfortunately, they are quite blackspot prone, but if it is doing ok in your yard that is all that really matters.

Prairie Joy imparts abstract loveliness of blossom, beautiful matte blue-green foliage, hardiness, and disease resistance. It is, however, stingy with both seeds and pollen, and a fair number of seedlings are non-remontant.

[Roselynn]

Thank you Paul & Joe for your feedback on working with the short growing season, I had not thoroughly thought about it before. Yes, it is short here, most my roses go through their first flush in late June or early July, and wrap up by end of September. If I’m lucky, it stays warm into mid October, and in unlucky times, there has been snowfall in late August.

Paul, I really like your idea of growing in containers. I’ve tried it before without success, but am willing to try again. I do have an attached sun room which extends the growing season by a few weeks on either end. I think my container roses did not work before because because I overwintered them in the garden shed, which fluctuated greatly in temperature. I should have overwintered in my unheated & insulated attached garage, or buried the containers. It’s times like these I wish I had a cold room or cellar. I have had success with bringing petunias and geraniums indoors as houseplants. It was tricky with the petunias(aphids, low humidity, mildew, etc.) but it did work in the long run.

I just read the topic ‘Rose Hybridizing in the Greenhouse’ by Dr. Roger Mitchell in the Next Step RHA manual, I like how he described using heated/unheated greenhouses and “the ability to ripen hips well into the winter greatly extended my short hybridizing season. Perhaps equally significant, pollinations could be made even on rainy days.” LOL perhaps I turn my sun room into a heated greenhouse one day. It’s heavy raining right now, hope it doesn’t ruin the crosses I made this morning. If it’s not rain, it’s hail. I find in this area greenhouses are suggested to keep us gardeners sane and not too frustrated. On the bright side of things, at least I don’t usually have a problem with deer in my yard. Although I heard a moose nested in the neighbors yard a few years ago!

Joe, this is my second year of Prairie Joy, I planted it late last year (did not see any blooms), and I am in love with it’s first blooms this year!!! I love the cupping, how they fade lighter around the edges, it reminds me of romantic Austin roses. And I adore the matte foliage, it works well with the blue-green colour. I also really like it’s compact bushiness. The leaves are very tight and it is not lanky at all. Thank you for the info on it’s characteristics as a parent.

Winnipeg Parks is my favorite rose, it is what got me into growing roses in the first place. I had walked by another house in town which had it growing and was in awe something like this could grow in this zone. And then I thought if they can do it, so can I. Winnipeg Parks was the first rose I bought for my yard. And now I have six Winnipeg Parks plants, lol! It is also a relatively early bloomer for me as it is in the most protected area of my yard. This year, it’s first blooms started about mid June. And last year, it’s last blooms were at the end of October! (http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3460001/last-blooms-for-the-season?n=16)

All this got me thinking of my overall breeding program and what it should look like, and what has worked for Alberta breeders like Erskine and Bugnet. I would assume the parents of Therese and Prairie Peace are early bloomers? Perhaps they did well because there was time for the hips to ripen. This led me to think of what my best seed parents could be. I am beginning to realize the importance of selecting good “mothers,” and for me it might be the early bloomers. Right now it looks like Rosa Arkasana, Rosa Woodsii ‘Kimberly,’ Winnipeg Parks, and any spinosissima roses I have access to may be the best seed parents for me.

Lol perhaps it’s time for me to officially add Altai Scotch to my collection, I’ll ask my neighbors if they will share a sucker.

Thank you to everyone for your thoughts!

[ldavis]

FWIW, Therese B matured hips in 8 weeks, before July 1 here, from early May pollination. Pollen parent was R pomifera which is the earliest blooming plant I have. Seed came from David Z. It matured hips at same time as Th B.