Basye's "Probable Amphidiploid" now extinct?

The one plant I have had a bead on was at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden. It appears it is now lost, I gather due to excessive pruning by a volunteer. (I have delayed acquiring the plant due to space concerns of my own.)

Does anybody know of any other source for this rose? I think Enrique Munoz Ramirez might have once had a cutting – though he evidently lived close enough to the SJ garden he could have obtained pollen from there – but I haven’t seen him on this forum for the better part of a decade, and cannot find any contact information.

Dr. Byrne at TX A&M evidently never had it in their Basye’s collection.

If anybody knows of a source, I’d be very appreciative. It would be a shame to lose this interesting plant.


Philip, I maybe no help, but I would message Kim Rupert, Burling elong(I think spelling is wrong) or contacting Paul Barden if you can, just a thought.

Thanks David, but Burling never had it. I doubt Paul had it and I haven’t had it in MANY years. I wish I had my repeat flowering self seedling of it, but like MANY others, it’s long gone. Philip and I have been in contact about it.

okay Kim, it was worth a shot

Thank you. I’ll take any possible shot. It’s sad when such things disappear.

Thanks to you both.
Yes, I have cried (virtually) on Kim’s shoulder over the loss. Several years ago, I was not really in the position to handle it, despite the fact that I acquired a little more land then than I have now. (I was having a near zero percent take rate on cuttings after moving to TX. I hadn’t appreciated the benefits of Louisiana humidity.)

I think Enrique is probably my only hope for this thing as he seemed to take an interest in the plant as well (perhaps as a consequence of my own unfiltered speculations on its merits). I have no idea if he ever obtained any interesting offspring. He used to be quite active here. Does anybody have any contact information for him?

I don’t have it :-/

Then it’s gone for good.

I do, however, have a third generation seedling which David Zlesak is propagating for me.

My family is destroying my plants since I left home a few years ago.

If people care, contact him for a plant. Assuming if they survive and you pay for postage.

Parentage is
Cologne X (Abraham Darby X Basye’s Amphidiploid)

Enrique, long time no see! Have you just been lurking for the past half-dozen years or so? :wink:

I’m sorry to hear of your plants are being lost. It seems inevitable for most of us, at some point after many years in the hobby.

I am very sorry to learn of the rose being extinct. I was complacently assuming the plant was safe in the hands of “the Sangerhausen of CA.” I just haven’t been prepared to take on the beast even though It’s a rose I have aspired to acquire for almost a decade. It always struck me as having great potential, being analogous to Kordesii, but perhaps even more suited to my climate. (It’s parent, the abyssinian rose just looks like an incredible survivor in the mountains of Somalia, and I can’t help but think it would be very strong here in TX as well.)

Thanks for your response. I’d love to learn more about your seedling.

On the more hopeful side, another such amphidiploid (probable or genuine) could be produced by anyone who had the right “parts”.

While checking on possible progeny of Basye’s plant, I saw what appears to be something even more interesting: Kim Rupert’s self-seedling from Basye’s. White (mostly) and perpetual. That should give more immediate results … assuming it is still around.

And that reminded me of another Rugosa oddity mentioned by Graham Thomas (1994).

At some time before 1905, > R. roxburghii > was crossed with > R. rugosa > Thunb., ever a fertile parent, and the result partakes equally of both, being a good dense bush of some 2 m, well clad in its crisp foliage, amongst which the wide pale flowers tend to hide themselves. The stems are prickly like those of > R. rugosa > and the bark does not peel. It is interesting that the rounded, large heps are bristly and have some orange colouring. It was named > R. > x > micrugosa > Henkel.

During his experimental work with the parentage of roses at Cambridge in the second quarter of this century, Dr C.C. Hurst raised seedlings of this cross, one of which was named > R. > x > micrugosa > ‘Alba’. Apart from being of rather more upright habit, it is in other respects a replica of the original but of important garden value because the > white flowers are produced not only at midsummer, but onwards throughout the growing season> . They are, moreover, very fragrant. This might prove to to be a fertile parent and thus bring both species into today’s hybrids. They would be very hardy.

Then there is yet another, raised by Gustafsson (1944).
R. canina II x rugosa: 1934-4 — This series consists of two individuals. One is a monosomic plant showing almost no trace of the father but also being very unlike the mother. It is smaller and less vigorous than its sister-plant, having few and rather weak prickles, small purely white petals, a light-green colour on stem and leaves, and lacks anthocyanin. It is less winter-hardy than its sister-plant; during the cold winters 1941 and 1942 the superterrestrial parts were entirely killed. It cannot be a monosomic of the mother-plant since the meiotic behaviour is that typical of canina-rugosa hybrids. Therefore in this case the loss of one chromosome obliterates the characters brought in by the rugosa genome.

‘White Surprise’ [R. bracteata x R. rugosa rubra] is at least a little surprising.

‘Nyveldt’s White’ may be another instance, having been raised from three pinks. [R. rugosa rubra x Rosa cinnamomea] x Rosa nitida.

Karl, unfortunately, unless someone like Joan Monteith still has it, that seedling is LONG gone. It was gone from that garden long before it was dismantled in 2007.


‘Micrugosa’ is at my job – Colonial Park’s Rudolf van der Goot Rose Garden, in Somerset, NJ. I didn’t dead-head it at all, and it’s covered with hips.



Kim, do you have any idea as to how to contact Joan Monteith? I grew some seeds from her many years ago, and never was able to share results with her as I could not find any up-to-date contact info for her.

And having lost my chance at obtaining that one, I’m feeling a little more desperate to go ahead and acquire Legacy, also on my list. Anybody have material they would be willing to share for trade or postage or something?

I don’t know how to contact Joan, Philip. I will email Paul Barden to see if he does. Hopefully, someone else here may know. I have Legacy and you’re welcome to cuttings if you want them…

Both Robert Rippetoe and Paul responded with the same Yahoo email for Joan. Unfortunately, that email failed as “disabled” this morning. The last either stated they had been in contact with her was . I hope someone else has something more current and you can make contact. Sorry about that.

Even better news! Robert found a phone number and Joan says to feel free to call! Check your email! Kim

Thank you, all! I think the yahoo address was the one I had from way back when, but I have her number and will plan on reaching out. (I know nothing about Joan really, so don’t know when best time to call would be.) I posted a little info on her seedling on a separate Mr. Nash thread.

Thanks again. I’d be shocked if she has the amphidiploid, but I’ll keep my fingers crossed anyway.

Tom Carruth responded to my inquiry about it potentially still existing in the “hinterlands” of The Huntington… “There are some scattered abandoned plants up there…still alive. I suspect this is a once bloomer? Any pictures I could refer to? Thanks. TC” I described where it once existed, to the best of my abilities, and referred him to the photos on HMF. Fingers crossed!

That would be exciting if so, Kim. Thanks so much! (I certainly never intended to set you on a snipe hunt!) My impression would be that it could be a real survivor (if not put under undue stress like excessive pruning!)

I really am quite surprised no one mined that plant for more.

Did Tom delve much into species and species hybrids in his work? (I know a certain soulieana figured into a number of his hybrids, and I’m actually somewhat curious as to whether it was in fact the true species, or the “in commerce as” or Ralph’s putative version. My assumption, however, is that the market realities of Weeks would make such long-tern long-shot goals unappealing to the company.)

I can’t help but imagine that Tom would still be tempted to dabble in the pollen, and assume he still does so if only on impulse from time to time, but I haven’t been up on his recent activities really.

You’re welcome, Philip. As far as I know, Tom isn’t involved in any “pollen pimping” these days. His license plates used to be based upon “pollen pimp”. The Amphidiploid and “Basye’s Thornless”, what is now called Basye’s Legacy, were planted under the canopy of a huge oak and enjoyed its continuous rain of fallen leaves, dews and mite frass. Both grew up into the oak where they “festooned” themselves out into the sun to flower. I had collected a gallon ziplock of hips from each and raised MANY self seedlings. That’s where the repeat flowering one I shared came from. And, it’s what taught me that Legacy made weak seedlings when used as a seed parent. If “odd plants, here and there” continue to survive, it’s possible these MAY be some of them because they were off the beaten path and they were planted in ideal spots to survive. Their location is precisely what has permitted many “found roses” to survive. The soil under oaks is usually quite damp and rich. The oaks capture any fogs and dews and allow them to “rain” down on the plants beneath them. And, they are ALWAYS infested with aphids and mites which continually suck the sap and excrete their frass, which also assists in maintaining the plants living under them. Both can be enormous climbers when required and are quite adept at throwing themselves up and through overhanging branches. The oak was on the uphill side of the Study Plot and may well have survived the creation of the Chinese Pavilion as it should have been far enough out of the way to be left alone during construction. At least, that’s my hope. '77-361' Rose Photo 'Basye's Amphidiploid' Rose Photo