Has anyone grown a significant number of seedlings from self- or open-pollinated seeds of these? If so, what were they like?
I have germinated a number of BB, but they have seemed relatively mildew prone and weak unfortunately.
David
Does’t work for me as a hip parent… don’t know why because it sets tons of OP hips.
I did a cross of BB X (Queen Elzabeth X Basye’s Legacy).
Only one seed this year!
If Commander Gillette is the same as the “Basye’s Thornless” that I got from Mr. Ralph Moore, then I have grown seedlings of it. They were usually quite clean, but most were once bloomers. The hips of the offspring also tend to have nice clear yellow hips when they are ripe.
Jim Sproul
Do you have pics Jim?
I grow 77-361 (Basye’s Legacy from Ashdown).
I can verify if you can give me a description, or even pics…
Would these earlier threads help sort this out?
http://www.rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=2795#2800
http://www.rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=2316#2335
The plant I have (I was told that it is Commander Gillette) may be 77-361–it has the maroon leaves and canes in sunshine when the weather turns cold. So already I’ve learned something this evening.
Peter
Some years ago, I received Commander Gillette (65-66) from David Neumeyer, who had been given it by Dr. Basye when he visited the Dr.'s garden in Texas. Dr. Basye identified it as Gillette. I propagated “Basye’s Thornless” from The Huntington Library Study Plot’s plant, which had been sent to them by Dr. Basye in the 1980s. Dr. Basye, himself, identified this rose as 77-361, the cross between The Probable Amphidiploid X Commander Gillette.
I sent cuttings of David’s Commander Gillette to Sequoia and I took them pieces of The Huntington’s 77-361. I grow both roses and have for many years now. They are identical. There has been no confusion between them in my garden. Any mis identification was made by Dr.Basye, personally.
I’ve raised many self seedlings from these, and Basye’s Blueberry. 77-361/65-626 self pollinate very quickly, long before the petals begin to emerge from the sepals. Very early on, I chose not to pollinate them, but use their pollen instead, to prevent the self fertilization. Both have consistantly produced very weak self seedlings for me, requiring quite some time to grow into sufficiently strong plants to warrant trying to maintain them for study. I’ve also found that Blueberry produces quite thorny seedlings with what I’ve used it with, and doesn’t yield as high a degree of disease resistance as the other ‘two’.
Paul Zimmerman, of Ashdown Roses, decided to finally take my suggestion to introduce 77-361. Both it and 65-626 were frequently refered to as “Basye’s Thornless”, so we decided to call 77-361, “Basye’s Legacy” to differentiate between the two.
To date, my introduced roses created from Legacy are Dottie Louise (Orangeade X Legacy)and Lynnie (Torch of Liberty X Legacy). Two others, Lilac Charm X Legacy and Anne Harkness X Legacy are in the pipeline for introduction. Ralph Moore has introduced My Stars, (Playboy X Legacy) and is preparing to introduce Gina’s Rose, another Playboy X Legacy cross.
I’ve found that the most cold hardy and disease resistant seedlings tend to be those which possess the deciduous characteristic. Those which have been ever green are far more prone to black spot and rust in my experience. Legacy, and therefore, Commander Gillette, is more likely to yield thornlessness and disease resistance then Blueberry. A cross of Joycie X Blueberry has needle prickles and is less disease resistant than the others, but has blooms very much like those of Heather Austin, with an intense, sweet fragrance, which Paul Barden has described as being the closest to that of OGRs. I’ve taken Dottie Louise further in crosses with R. Fedtschenkoana after reading Autumn Damask contains Fedtschenkoana genes. Time permitting, I will remake that cross using Lynnie as she has better disease resistance than Dottie Louise, even though Dottie is reportedly quite clean in many climates.
The interesting point in comparing Dottie with Lynnie is they are similar in parentage, except for the inclusion of Golden Angel (mini, Moore)in the mix. Golden Angel, with its Wichuriana genes produced a higher level of disease resistance and cold hardiness in Lynnie. Reports back to Ashdown state that Lynnie is free from black spot on the Gulf Coast, and that Lynnie has withstood the coldest winter in New Hampshire in recent memory, with only a rose cone, with no damage. It also withstood several consecutive nights of ice storms, to 9 degrees, as four inch rooted cuttings on an exposed table at Ashdown with no damage.
Some crosses with Legacy have produced odd and consistant results. When used with Loving Touch, the plants are rather dwarf, thornless and never blooming. All were discarded after several years of never producing flowers. When crossed wtih Anne Harkness, they’ve ranged from moderately prickled to completely thornless and have all been once blooming in my climate. Yellow Jewel with Legacy yields large, quite thorny, creeping plants with very blue tinted foliage, and are once blooming. It’s been common for the petal bases to be pure white, with lighter colored petal reverses in nearly every cross which has flowered.
So far, I’ve not been able to eliminate the pink to red coloring in any of the seedlings. The closest has been with Lilac Charm, which is reddish lavender. Wapiti X Legacy is nearly thornless and brilliant, saturated scarlet. Softee X Legacy is completely prickle free, dwarf, single, pink and ever blooming. This cross excites me because it brings together both of Ralph Moore’s most important breeding miniatures with Legacy, and contains two, distinct sources of thornlessness. It sets many hips, but I haven’t attempted to germinate any, yet.
“…Yellow Jewel with Legacy yields large, quite thorny, creeping plants with very blue tinted foliage, and are once blooming…”
This discription of the foilage fits my Pacific Serenade seedling VERY well!
Although, I don’t know if this rose is once blooming. It hasn’t bloomed this year because I overcrowded it, and it was stressed.
I chose Pacific Serenade because I thought the strong yellow color may by pass the species hue of pink or red. I will try to cross it with Golden Angel again… this year I accidently cut off the crosses while I was cleaning.
To Kim, OP seed of Softee X Legacy germinates easily even unchilled with a high percentage of germinations. OP seedlings are thornless but of generally poor blossom quality. I only saved one which looked very much like the parent. When used as pollen parent thornlessness was not passed onto the first generation and bloom was scarce. I have saved two of these seedlings for further use in breeding and evaluation.
Re: Pacific Serenade. Cal Poly is really nice but Ive noticed that New Zealand passes on blackspot quite often as well as pale/washed out colors. Rabble Rouser might work but it is a pollen parent only type. I wonder if Bright Smile would work? BTW- what was the breeder thinking when naming that rose? Gross lol. Belle Epoque sets seed really well and has very few thorns and comes from really vivid colors. It keeps producing subdued bi-colors for me though (like pale yellow edged pale pink). Too bad Ray of Sunshine wasnt more available. That might work.
Well… I haven’t worked with Pacific Serenade that often, but I am pleased with the 77-361 seedlings this year.
It sets hips easily, 7 seeds per hip even with hard to use pollen.
It even set a hip with The Pilgrim, which has virtually no pollen that I could see with my eye. I am so excited by this cross.
Next year, I will try to cross this with Crested Sweetheart (the one rose I refuse to quite.)
Robert, you shouldn’t have to use a self seedling of Softee X Legacy. Go back to the original and don’t use anything bred out of either 0-47-19, nor 1-72-1 or 1-72-2. Keep introducing other sources of thornlessness to prevent homogenizing for disease. It’s the plant you want first. Remember Ralph’s saying, “Once you have a good plant, it’s easy to hang a pretty flower on it”. There’s already so much in this seedling, there’s no telling what may come from it when used with other types outside of its families. Did you get cuttings of the repeating self from The Probable Amphidiploid? That would be interesting to use with other roses, also. It’s no where near as thorny as The Amphidiploid, and it’s very disease resistant. It handles the heat, at least here, quite well.
Hi Kim, I finally lost the repeating OP amphidiploid seedling. It was too thorny and ungainly for me anyway.
I only tested the OP Softee X Legacy seed to see how it germinated. I had not intention of breeding anything from a it’s selfed seedling. I only kept it out of curiosity.
I have two thornless rose seedlings for you whenever I see you again since you are working on deciduous thornfree roses. Maybe I can bring them to Great Rosarians?
I am trying to breed the deciduous quality out of my seedlings so they are of no use to me, but too valuable to discard if someone can use them.
I disagree about linebreeding. I think it’s the way to go if one is going for thornlessness. If no more than 50% of the genetic material is shared I see no reason why vigor should be lost.
There are also alot of good thornfree roses derived from multiflora that should be considered.
I have grown both Commander Gillette (from David Neumeyer) and Basye
Hi, Joan. Interesting about BL not repeating for you. Here in the desert conditions, it bloomed all summer. I could count on getting pollen from it just about any time I wanted it. But, I allowed it to get large as I had the room for it to do its thing.
My BL doesn’t repeat here in the low desert.