Award of Excellence Program Thoughts Needed

Plant Patents
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1

I have been asked to sit on a panel at the ARS National Mini Convention at the end of the month having to do with the ARS’s AOE program for miniature roses and its future. I’d like your input from a hybridizer’s viewpoint.

  1. Are you aware of the designation and program?

  2. If you have submitted varieties for test, what are your comments regarding the experience?

  3. If you haven’t participated, what would it take to get you to submit entries for testing?

  4. Should the testing program be spray or no spray?

  5. Does the AOE designation convey any special meaning to you as a purchaser of new plants?

6> Anything else come to mind re AOE?

2

Larry,

This is great that the ARS wants input from the hybridizers. In answer to your questions:

1 - Yes

2 - No - I don’t have anything worthy for testing as of yet. I do have a hybrid multiflora, that looks and acts like a miniature that might be worthy.

3 - Yes - once I get some varieties worthy of testing. I will look into it then (and cost{s} related to doing so). If the cost(s) are too high, I will not enter. Time will tell if/when that will be.

4 - I would recommend no spray. Not spraying in our gardens is the future of rose growing in the world. Miniature roses lag far behind their big counterparts in terms of disease-resistance (or lack thereof). An AOE designation would actually mean something other than the rose was pretty to look at.

5 - The AOE designation indicates to me that the rose is probably pretty to look at, is floriferous enough to warrant attention, and performs well enough under the old testing method. I take it like a grain of salt when deciding to buy a new rose (a lot like the old AARS designation used to be).

6 - No. I would like to hear from others (especially who have entered) in this regard. I would like to know if it is really worth the time and effort to submit entries?

Andy

3

Thanks for the opportunity to comment.

I participated decades ago when there were 8 locations. I did a study of the scoring afterward and posted it in the RHA newsletter. My best mini of the time came our right in the middle of the pack overall, though at a couple of locations it was right on top. That particular miniflora is still going strong here at home, and down the street in a neighbor’s yard with no attention, and at the university in a regular rose garden.

Based on my experience I’d say you must go no-spray. Very likely you ought to think of regionalization too. Some bushes will be really good in cooler or warmer clime, but not both.

I do wonder if minis are kind of over, except for really dedicated people, or forced in pots for the hoi polloi.

How many of the AOE winners continue to have significant sales? That will tell you if the designation does anything special for their market longevity. I suspect brand name promotion by now-defunct corporations was what kept a lot of minis on teh market, independent of whether they had the AOE labeI. use HMF to check on things, not promotional labels

I have only about a dozen of 100 purchased minis still surviving, with some spray. Winter cold is probably their biggest issue (even with leaf cover) in my Kansas location which is why my own productions are still around and ones I bought are not. Mine are hardy.

I’m not sure what you should call a mini Knock Out. But that’s probably what’s next to be a big hit.

4

I would second the vote for regional awards instead of one national one. Seperateing regions by similar climate.

No spray is were the gardening public wants to go. So I think you need to go no spray in order to have the award mean anything.

I have not entered anything yet but if it still going in the future I probably will.

When the average person looks in a catalog they pay attention to awards. Whether it vegables or flowers. However if you go no spray I think you would have to rename the award. I think this because if a person buys a rose that won this award in the past and has bad experience with that rose they will put no stock in the award in the future. If you go no spray you must start with a high standard and not bend on it; even if it means not giving out an award in certain years.

5

1. Are you aware of the designation and program?

Yes.

2. If you have submitted varieties for test, what are your comments regarding the experience?

Although I was oft told that the review process did not heavily favor exhibition type roses, I believe the process does favor those, and the experience I had supported the idea.

3. If you haven’t participated, what would it take to get you to submit entries for testing?

You couldn’t persuade me to submit entries again, no way, no how. The work and expense is a waste of time, IMO.

4. Should the testing program be spray or no spray?

OK, here’s my opinion (and be aware, it is only an opinion): If the AOE continues down the same path it has taken all these decades, it will soon become completely irrelevant, since the whole “better living through chemistry” concept, as rose culture is concerned, is dead; people will no longer engage in practices that require donning a hazmat suit to apply the chemistry. I think its about time we walked away from the chemical dependancy rose growing and “got real” about the hobby. So, if the AOE (and ARS) refuses to work towards a pesticide-free paradigm for the future, it will soon find itself in limbo. From my perspective, its already 80% there.

5. Does the AOE designation convey any special meaning to you as a purchaser of new plants?

10 years ago I used to think the designation had merit. After having grown many of the AOE winners, I no longer think their AOE designation has much merit. Most of these perform no better than any other cultivars.

6> Anything else come to mind re AOE?

I think Larry put his finger on it: “I do wonder if minis are kind of over, except for really dedicated people, or forced in pots for the hoi polloi.”

If you look at the popularity trends for roses, they have experienced (approx) 70 year cycles of waxing and waning. I believe we are experiencing a general waning cycle that has been in the works for almost a decade now. I don’t honestly expect roses will ever see the popularity as a garden subject as they did 20 years ago, not within my lifetime. Remember how the Victorian gardeners went mad for the dwarf roses that surfaced in that era? European catalogs quickly filled with dozens of named varieties and people couldn’t get enough of 'em. And just as quickly, fashions shifted and within a decade, all but one or two had vanished completely. I believe we are about to see the same thing happen to the modern miniatures. Take ‘June Laver’ for example: once the darling of the show table, this rose is practically extinct. In fact I discarded my final plant of it last week. There isn’t a nursery in the US to buy it from. I have to wonder how many plants of it there are actually left in the country.

Miniatures are quickly being relegated to “novelty” status, and may soon be something sold only as “disposable” gift plants, or from one or two of the brave nurseries that dares to hang on to a dozen of the truly outstanding varieties. What role will the AOE have then, I wonder?

6

Larry,

If I recall some previous discussions on this with a few other hybridizers, one of the primary reasons for non-participation is the timing. From what I recall, plants have to be shipped in the Jan-Mar time frame to various locations and individual evaluators, which pretty much lets out any in the northern parts of the US that do not have a heated greenhouse. We had a similar problem with the RHA trials there at Shreveport, and the time frame that they wanted to get them into the ground. We did make some arrangements where they could be shipped in the fall, heeled in for the winter and planted according to their schedule. With AOE test gardens all over the country, the number of plants and the ship dates can be a monumental task. This was the main reason Mitchie and I always declined to participate each year. Mitchie had some very nice seedlings that were of the quality to enter, but we just couldn’t see the expenditure of time and money as worthwhile.

Whatever they decide, it should be a no spray deal as that is what the public wants nowdays. About the only ones that probably care aout the AOE designation are the exhibitors, and they make up less then 5% of the purchasers of roses. And with minis being propagated by the millions in Canada and sold in supermarkets for $2.98 in the spring, most folks tend to treat them as annuals - toss it in the fall, buy a new one in the spring.

7

Trialing my New England bred seedlings in Louisiana makes no sense, miniature or otherwise. The AARS model of regional trials makes far more sense to me but, of course, that’s no longer an option. If the ARS wants to hold meaningful rose trials then they should step in to fill the void left behind by the AARS - and level the playing field by accepting all entrants without need of a commercial sponsor.

8

Perhaps the commitee should consider if the time and resources for these trials might not be better surved in another fashion. People who like miniatures will probably seek them out without an award. If it is a dieing area of the trade it might not make sense to spend money on it. Instead it might make better since to help popularize roses again in some fashion. How about filling these empty garden spaces with low care roses that grow easily in which ever region they are in. And giving people examples of why some roses are not as fushy as they think. Or something else similar.

9

  1. Yup.

  2. I wouldnt submit anything, personally.

  3. A range of acceptable garden plants. For example, I see a lot of Austin roses booming color in people’s gardens here, but something similar (this is just one example) as a miniature would not be acceptable as an AOE winner.

  4. No spray all the way.

  5. Not anymore. It did, like between the age of 14-15, lol.

  6. It was sort of pointless, to be honest.

10

This speaks volumes!

  1. Does the AOE designation convey any special meaning to you as a purchaser of new plants?
  1. Not anymore. It did, like between the age of 14-15, lol
11

I agree with you Jackie. I think many of us have become jaded with the whole awards issue, period. Schools and organizations “award” children for just showing up. The legion of “awards” in entertainment have become so gratuitous, and so many of the “award winners” leave me wondering “what the devil were they THINKING?!”

AARS became as gratuitous, often with the “winners” leaving me wondering if this is the BEST, just how terrible were the “losers”? Obviously, they have all been marketing tools, but if the winners have been the best of the best, it’s a very sad situation. While I have found award wins interesting, it’s been more comparing what I’ve seen as their observable value to the other comparable competitors for my dollars. Honestly, I’ve not been all that impressed and haven’t based any purchase decisions on any awards bestowed. But, then, from very early on, I’ve found those with the lowest ratings in the POP, or RIR or RIP or whatever it is now, have been some of the most successful, enjoyable and beloved roses in my garden. If they deemed it not worth the powder to blow up, it frequently flourished in my garden with extremely little care. Kim

12

Compared to the rest of the folks here, I am very new to roses and breeding them. I’m probably a little more than your average rose gardener as far as mind set. That’s changing, but when I’m on the hunt for roses the last thing on my mind is the awards that they have or have not received. The bottom line for me is “if I like it, I’ll buy it.” I don’t think that I’m much different than most of the folks that shop for roses. Awards mean very little to the buying public. I have a meager little rose garden at the moment and when my friends see it the idea of awards, well, they are never mentioned.

13

I guess I’m going to have to be on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to whether or not miniature/miniflora roses can be popular or not. I belong to two local rose societies. The first society is my home state’s society, and this group of people generally do not grow and enjoy miniature roses as a whole. This Society pushes low- and no-spray rose gardening. The founders of the Society have published a book on sustainable rose gardening. When I talk to many people in the Society about miniatures, many seem to want to grow them, but don’t due to many of the poor examples they have tried in the past with major disease and hardiness issues. When show time rolls around in this society, there are usually fewer then ten entries of miniature and mini-flora roses being shown in the whole show (and many are really poor specimens).

The second Society is in the neighboring state to the west of my home state. This Society is much more show-driven. They spray the living daylights out of their roses all season long. Many members grow hundreds of miniatures and mini-flora roses. When show time rolls around the table is full of miniatures and mini-floras from front-to-back and side-to-side. There is a full complement up on the head table that would rival any ARS Miniature/Mini-flora Court of Honor.

I would also ascertain that when people are looking for roses to grow in their garden and aren’t looking to show their roses, often look at what the rose will give back to them in terms of plant architecture, floriferousness, ease of care, hardiness, and scent. The fact that a bloom is relatively small has less weight on their decision. Also, many of the new shrubs being introduced have miniature/mini-flora-sized blooms. The plant architecture for many of these shrubs is low and spreading. Disease resistance and ease of care are usually the deciding factor by people who decide to buy these roses.

I would also like to remind everyone of some of the polyanthas that are widely grown. Many have quite small blooms (The Fairy), good hardiness ratings, great disease resistance, but have little-to-no scent. This type of plant architecture is great for filling in the gaps in front of a hedge of larger roses. These polyanthas definitely have enough flower-power to still warrent sufficient interest by the general public after many decades of use. I believe that miniatures and mini-floras having these same qualities would be just as popular. Especially when the color choices are increased to include colors amenable to modern gardens.

14

Hi Larry,

A few months ago I forwarded the link to Jim Hering about the poll that was done about spray vs. no spray for the AOE gardens. 90% of responders were in favor of “no spray”.

AOE - Award of Excellence, to Spray or Not to Spray

I agree with Andy that minis may yet have a prominent place in gardens. We (all of us who breed mini roses) have to do the work of making them more carefree. Minis are ideal for amateur breeding because they take up less space allowing many more seedlings to be evaluated for disease resistance in a more reasonable amount of space. I think that compact floriferous, clean roses will be one of “the next big things in roses”, whether the flowers are larger or smaller.

Minis will always have a place in my breeding program. I was hooked on them from the start and that hasn’t changed!

Regarding the questions: Yes, I have entered the AOE, but will not enter again unless there is a way that allows evaluation in a no-spray setting. In my opinion, that is the direction it must go. If it was possible to satisfy all parties, I think that having 2 areas within each of the AOE test gardens with varieties of all entries being tested under both conditions (spray and no spray) would be educational and enlightening all at the same time. Of course that would increase cost and AOE entry is already in my opinion too costly in both direct costs and time. I don’t think the award would make a rose more desirable to a sufficient number of people to recover the costs of entry.

I wonder if a commercial nursery or rose company could be enticed into being the propagator and distributor of entries to AOE test gardens? Probably not.

15

Most of the Poulsen landscape roses (Towne & Country, etc.) Arena introduced here were minis and polys. Martha’s Vineyard is as much a poly as any of the Lambertianas.

Definitely, both classes require updating, both in appearance as well as health and possibly fragrance. I firmly believe they are the mass market, landscape roses of our future.