It’s time to clear the slackers and lackers out of the test bed. Some decisions are obvious but some are downright painful. This is a fall flush of a Scarlet Moss on Sympathy offspring. The pigment density, health and vigor are outstanding but so are the spikes.
I have been carrying along quite a few non-bloomers that feature similar weaponry just because it seems a shame to put all that effort into making them and raising them without ever knowing if it was worth it. Supposing that there are eventually some keepers in the bunch, is it reasonable to expect to have a civilizing influence on them down the road?
Hi Don!
The easy (overly simplified) answer is that yes, thorns/prickles are dominant over thornlessness…
Once the gene is ‘turned on’ for thorn expression, then there are several other genes that come into play that tell the plant what density of thorns to express.
The systems for expression of thorns on the stems and the ‘leaves’ are inherited separately. That can be VERY frustrating! We’ll think we have a great thornless bush only to reach over and get caught by the thorns on the backs of the leaves!!
However, don’t give up on something because it’s armed to the ‘gills’ with thorns. If there are other characteristics present in the progeny you love, then keep it as breeding stock! It the plant is hardy (looks like it is) has a great color/flower type you love and has improved disease resistance then KEEP IT! …And of course…USE IT!
I’ll try to get Dr. Byrne to contribute to this discussion. I’m sure he’ll be able to tell you (in more detail) the heritability of thorns.
Great picture. It appears that this one inherited thorniness from Scarlet Moss but not any moss (that I can tell by the picture). Do we know the linkage between thorniness and moss? We can have thorniness without moss so could we have moss without thorniness?
Nice looking seedling there. I certainly do not have any knowledge about gene linked characteristics, but it also is a game of chance. For every gene that expresses itself, it does not have to follow the numbers as laid out by researchers nor do they express themselves in any particular order. In a one out of ten expression, you could be lucky and have #1 express the variation you are looking for-or it could be #9, or even #17. The plants do not read what we write about them, so they do not play by the book rules all that well. I do have a lovely repeat flowering, thornless (rosa acicularis x rosa nutcana) x Cafe Ole, which had a large # of very thorny siblings, all non repeating. There is no doubt that this is a cross, it was one of the runts of the litter, but because it bloomed as a seedling I potted it up and now it is repeating frequently, has developed into a healthy plant with respectable girth, is still thornless and sets seed with every flower. I think Natalie’s advice is very sound–if you like it’s attributes and it is reasonably to very disease resistant, keep it. I look forward to hearing what someone who might know about heritability in this instance might say.
OK–I spoke to soon. My little so called thornless cross is no longer totally thorn free. The latest branches do have a few thorns, less than the average modern, but they are there. One of its’ siblings started out thornfree also, but at about 5-6 months old it produced a branch that would have made mother acicularis proud. It is definitely going to have thorns but every branch is a great improvement over the species. I guess they still could develop more thorns, being only 9-10 mo old.
I also have a three yr old that looked very promising from the thornfree standpoint but this summer put out one of the thorniest branches known to rosedom. Little bristles, medium sharp bristles and then the hunkering flesh grabbers that looked a lot like those on your hugonis, maybe bigger. But after 20 yrs?? That’s what you call a dormant characteristic!
Jackie,
I know what you mean about the frustration of thinking you have a great thornless rose…only to later discover it actually does have thorns.
We had one years ago that we thought was thornless. Given the background of the parents, it was not surprising to us and so we continued to assume that it was truly thornless. Quite unexpectedly Dr. Byrne discovered it did indeed have thorns. Only near the base, and only a few…and that’s all it ever expressed. Just 1-2 at the base of the mature canes…
This is my 'almost thornless acicularis". I am hoping that by crossing this one next year with a thornless Basyes Legacy or Blueberry, both of which I have a few, this might actually produce some thornless offspring with improved flowers. This photo was taken in July and it has large flowers with good fertility-has 6 hips ripening on it and right now has 3 more flowers. Does anyone else have recommendations for thornless parents that are successful in passing along those genes?
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Don I used a Moss rose called Laneii, most of the offspring are extremely thorny and even the F2 offspring displayed this traite. I stopped using it as I thought people would be terrified having it in their gardens.
Jackie, I have four offspring of Safrano X Gold Bunny, one is thorny but the remainding three are smooth as. I still do not know what went on as both parent have thorns. All four seedlings set hip with abundant seed inside, which is not bad for a triploid roses. I have use Smooth Buttercup to obtain thornless roses, maybe you should have a look at that one or the whole smooth series bought out by the breeder. You would cross this with the Safrano Hybrids to get a new line of thornless roses, Jim P I am thinking of you