I have been trying to absorb as much material about hybridizing as I can find. I have been curious about the crested moss varieties but don’t know much about them. Can anyone give a recommendation on a couple of seed and pollen parents. I have also been trying to find information about Ralph Moore’s work with mini-moss breeding but can’t find much more than a reference or two. Can anyone offer some suggestions for a book, web pages, etc? Thanks
Jeff
I’ve tried Crested Sweetheart for years… nothing. Paul told me not to use it, but I still keep it. It’s lovely. Crested Jewel, however, is very fertile.
Paul would know more about this, but I raised an OP seedling-- and it’s rather a boring seedling-- but this is the most success I’ve had. Once blooming, boring pink.
BUT-- I think it’s my stepping stone. I’m going use it’s very fertile pollen back on Crested Jewel. I think that inbreeding in and out with Crested Jewel would be the direction to go. For me at least. But this is something that Paul would know more about.
I remember he even had crested rugosas several years ago.
Thanks Enrique. I looked through HMF to see if there were any crested that were bright yellow. No luck. My wife loves bright yellow roses and said if I was going to try and breed a new variety to try that. I found a source about 100 miles from me for the Crested Jewel. I guess it’s a good excuse for a road trip to the coast.
I’m 55 now, so maybe by the time I’m 80 I’ll be able to develop this 
. Hey, it’s a goal, so who knows?
Jeff,
Try this link. There’s a list of crested roses at the bottom of the page. Click on each for descriptions. This website belongs to Paul Barden, the Paul Enrique refers to above.
Mark
Some additional information, also on Paul B.'s website.
Mark
Pedro Dot’s Golden Moss if pale is quite fertile.
Moore’s Goldmoss is more golden but it is all I know about it.
Jeff,
It depends what direction you want to go with it. If you want to marry the crested roses with modern hybrids that have good color, its going to be a long road indeed. The problem is that the cresting trait is lost very quickly in breeding. To keep significant cresting in hybrids, you will need to backcross to previous hybrids and siblings to enhance the trait. Most of the best work has come out of ‘Crested Jewel’ (‘Little Darling’ X ‘Chapeau de Napoleon’) in part because it was the most fertile hybrid of the Moore crested roses. However, very few of the seedlings from it have cresting, and often it is diminished. You may gain repeat bloom but will lose most or all of the cresting trait, and so back to Crested Jewel you must go again. Lather, rinse, and repeat about 8 or 10 generations and you will eventually have your crested golden Yellow rose!
Now, this is not to say that it isn’t possible, because Ralph Moore did make significant progress in this area. However, he would be the first to tell you that to get really good crested roses in good colors with generous repeat would take a good 20 years or more. Myself, I have pretty much given up the quest, at least for now. I did several years work in this area and I have little to show for it. The best thing I ever got came from Marbree X Crested Jewel and was named Crested Damask. (see link below) I had a hunch the cresting trait had a greater affinity for the old European roses than modern remontant shrubs and that is why I made the cross. I have seen Crested Damask occasionally produce seed hips, but I’ve never had one germinate. Very little else of note ever came out of my work with the crested roses, but…
If I were to resume this line of breeding I would absolutely go back to Crested Jewel again. I have one seedling I kept that came from a sowing of open pollinated Crested Jewel seed about 7 years ago. It looks almost identical to Crested Jewel in bloom and in cresting, but it repeats about 3 times in the growing season. I’ve never used it in breeding, but perhaps I should.
The other seedling I have came directly out of Chapeau de Napoleon. It is Nightmoss X Chapeau de Napoleon, and it has the remarkable trait of showing both normal mossing AND cresting on the buds. It is a weak shrub, and once blooming only, and the blooms are only 12 petals and a rather dull lavender, but its a unique rose with the mossed, crested sepals. Since it doesn’t likely have any of the remontancy genes left in it, I never pursued it as a breeder.
By all means, have a go at this line of breeding, just be aware that you are looking at many generations of work and you will be frustrated along the way by sterility issues, and the difficulty of keeping the traits you want the most.
If you have any other questions I can answer, I’ll be glad to do my best.
Regards,
Paul
Thanks to all the answers. I’m retired and have lots of time to try and work this out. I didn’t think this would be a quick process by any means, but without a goal in mind hybridizing would be just a matter of growing seedlings. I probably should have taken a few more notes in genetics and biology. I can see lots of information down the road as far as what is recessive, dominant or a combination of traits.
I went through Paul’s web page on colors and Jim Sproul’s page of “painting the rose.” Both of those sites have great information. I see a lot more rose purchases in my near future and lots of sore muscles after making new beds.
Who knows what will come of this. I want to give this a shot as well as a couple of other things with roses.
Henri Martin x Chapeau de Napoleon produced some seedlings years ago. The plants took 2-3 years to produce some extremely ordinary single pink blooms: no cresting or even moss that I remember.
Henri Martin x Chapeau de Napoleon produced some seedlings years ago. The plants took 2-3 years to produce some extremely ordinary single pink blooms: no cresting or even moss that I remember.
Dave:
I was looking at both of these from Roses of Yesterday in California. From what I can see many of the current moss/crested come from one or the other. It would be nice to have a couple of each in my yard as parents. Of course it would be nice to have many other as well. I just need to choose wisely for this first order, but I think those two will be on the top of the list. For kicks I think I’m going to plant a few Chinas.
I use Moore’s Goldmoss every year as a more or less equivalent of Sunsprite, for the purpose of providing some additional intensity of yellow in shrubs, not for its mossing. Basically it is a thorny devil of a small floribunda. Picking the hips off by hand is like grasping the base of the stem of General Kleber, which I have, and grab hold of trying to pull the abundant suckers. Goldmoss has the good? trait to not dropping its petals quickly. In fact they often turn pink and then green and hang on a couple weeks. So it can add “substance” and longevity to the too floppy fast-falling offspring of something like Carefree Sunshine. At least that’s my hypothesis and breeding strategy. Whether it has cresting propensity is hard to say. It gets blackspot fairly bad here in KS, but I’ve had it for 30 years or so.
Note: crested sepals and mossed sepals are distinct characteristics and are inherited separately. One cannot turn into the other. However, it appears both can exist simultaneously in one plant.
crested sepals and mossed sepals are distinct characteristics and are inherited separately. One cannot turn into the other.
However, they seem to have the same underlying genetic cause - a dna regulatory sequence gone haywire. Each is an example of (abnormal) indeterminate growth replacing (normal) determinate growth. In the case of cresting, the sepals branch ad-infinitum and in mossing the glandular hairs (trichomes) branch ad-infinitum.
It wouldn’t it surprise me that the genes in question turn out to be part of a transposon.
Interesting notes on Crested Sweetheart; I’ve been making crosses with it for two years now and always get seeds, but no sprouts. Time to go back to the original, I guess.
Yes, Crested Sweetheart will not produce fertile seed. Ralph and I tried for several years and not one seed ever germinated. Go back to Crested Jewel; its HIGHLY fertile.
Paul
Does any one know where I can find Paul’s “Crested Damask”? Rogue Valley’s web site says the are out of stock.
Jeff,
I located my repeat blooming Crested Jewel (lookalike) seedling and have budded a few rooted understocks with it. Assuming these take and produce plants, you can have one to use in breeding. It may save you some time since it has both repeat bloom and some cresting. I have not tried it in breeding to determine how useful it might be, that will be up to you to determine 
Paul
Jeff,
Rogue Valley is the only nursery that offers it at this time. I suggest you phone and inquire about availability.
Paul
Paul,
Thanks for the offer. Just let me know when you have one available. I sent an e-mail to Rogue Valley about availability of your “Crested Damask.” I saw several other moss and crested roses you developed that they carry. Looks like a road trip to Ashland is in the cards.