Another first step toward a hardy yellow

Two seedlings from a found rose X ‘Carefree Sunshine’ have just bloomed for me. The found rose is probably an old damask and is very hardy.

This once-blooming seedling has tints of yellow in the center, so mayber another generation could give rebloom or yellow or both.


It’s nice!

I wouldn’t expect a strong yellow to come from ‘Carefree Sunshine’ but even a good hardy pale yellow would be very welcome.


Definitely a keeper Tom. Probably a good way to bring some scent in I suspect.

I like the flower form on this one. Congrats Tom.

Tom, I posted your link to a OGR group I belong to. There some thought your old rose could be ‘Belle Isis’?

I think Paul B. uses this one?


Thanks Robert. I looked at all of those photos on HelpMeFind and some look like good matches, but others have very different foliage and flower stalks. I’m guessing that some of those must be misidentified “Belles” ;0)

In reading the references…

  1. “the flowers and flower stalks are pure Gallica”

that’s pretty accurate, although the shape of the hips is elongated, not round

  1. “flowers, which are fully double and open flat, are a lovely delicate shade of pink and have a strong perfume.”

this definitely fits

3)“Scent: myrrh, and the color of the flowers: pale salmon-pink.”

Nothing “myrhh” about it, to my nose – it’s just strongly “old rose” scented like many other OGR’s (old garden roses) and the color is just pink – I’m not seeing any of those salmon or yellowish tints, often mentioned.

So it’s a definite maybe??? ;0)

I’ll have to go see if Paul has a picture on his site.

You might look at Duchesse de Montebello too?


Going by the photos of foliage and stems on HelpMeFind, ‘Duchesse de Montbello’ looks like less of a match than ‘Belle Isis’ (‘Belle Isis’ is pretty close). But thanks for trying anyway.

Although it would be interesting to have a name attached to it, I can still use it for hybridizing, named or not. So, I don’t get too worried about not knowing what it really is. All I really need to know is that it’s a strong grower and it will set seeds. Just let me know if you want to see it in person. I’m sure I could send you a sucker [it suckers like crazy].

Thanks, Tom

I purchased ‘Belle Isis’ from Heirloom Roses several years ago, because Austin used it. I am convinced my plant is correctly named.

I honestly can’t see the salmon tints in the flower, myself. I also cannot definitely identify the “myrrh” scent which is said to basically be like liquorish, but its scent is not a typical old rose (Damask) scent: It is more complex, but difficult to describe. At least one of the photos on HMF seems to be of a different rose, although most look OK.

I am of little use in identifying old roses generally, but I can concur with what some of the old rose books say about identifying this rose:

Its flower, leaves, plant shape and height, and strong suckering are all pure Gallica.

Its thorns are un-Gallica like: Many are far too large, which experts feel indicates some non-Gallica genes. I wish that all collections of rose picture included clear shots of the leaves, fruit, and thorns, as they are often more diagnostic.

It is a super-nice rose, but not easy to breed. I tried it a couple of years as a seed parent, but got few seeds. Some have said it is sterile, but it isn’t. I only got one or two seedlings and I am not currently working with it.


Were the hips of your ‘Belle Isis’ round or elongated/oval? And how tall does it get?

My found rose has definitely elongated hips (not round like gallica officinalis - the only gallica I have experience with).

And the found rose easily gets five or six feet tall, which would be tall for what I remember of gallica officinalis.

Otherwise I do see the similarities (to gallica) in leaf, etc.


If I had a rose grow to 5 or 6 feet in my garden, I would say definitely not ‘Belle Isis.’ Mine is never over 3 feet. Unfortunately, I am in 97% sand with dry summers, so everything is short. How tall it would be in better conditions, I can’t guess. For comparison purposes, it is similar in height to my other Gallicas: ‘Officinalis,’ ‘Cosimo Ridolfi,’ and 'Alain

Blanchard.’ It is much shorter than ‘Alika’ and ‘La Belle Sultane,’ both of which are in the 6-foot range.

I can’t recall hip shape: It doesn’t make a lot, and they contain few seeds. I will watch mine this year and post again if it makes any hips this year.

Thanks Roger. I suspect that what I’ve found, probably isn’t ‘Belle Isis’. It gets just as tall or maybe even taller than ‘Alika’ – I’d forgotten that I used to have that Gallica.

FWIW, my Belle Isis prefers to grow tall & upright on multiflora understock. It’s showing signs of fertility since every bloom I pollinated so far has set hip.

Tom, the bloom on your seedling is so gorgeous! Your old rose does not strike me as Belle Isis. It looks damask, so enjoy it for what it is.

Thanks Dee. I’m thinking that the picture must look better than real life though, because I actually wasn’t very impressed with the seedling’s flower. I was mostly excited about the potential it might have as a breeder. And on that note, it has two open-pollinated hips that have been holding on, so it appears that it is at least somewhat fertile. Unfortunately it seems to have a tendency to a little bit of mildew, even on the foliage. The found damask only mildewed on the hips and pedicels; ‘Carefree Sunshine’ doesn’t mildew at all. So, in this case, the seedling is worse than either parent.

As a follow-up, I think I may have found a good match for the identity of the “Jefferson” damask found rose. It looks identical - in flower, receptacle, stems and foliage - to all of the pictures I’ve found of ‘Petite Lisette’.

And also, I’ve changed my impression of the general disease resistance of the two hybrid seedlings (with ‘Carefree Sunshine’). Although they seem to have some tendency to mildew, it doesn’t seem to faze them much. And they have held onto the majority of their leaves through disease-provoking weather conditions that have caused nearby roses to lose most of their foliage.

CS seems to be good source of bs resistance, remontancy, and yellow color.In 08, Duch. de Montebello X CS produced large number of seeds, which may produce hybrids similar to yours; remontancy was main goal, albeit very unlikely.

CS seems to be good source of bs resistance, remontancy, and yellow color.In 08, Duch. de Montebello X CS produced large number of seeds, which may produce hybrids similar to yours; remontancy was main goal, albeit very unlikely.