While doing some research for an article, I came across a reference to a repeat flowering rose bred by A. William Paul and named Vanessa (1914). It was described as apple-blossom pink with a bold dark brown center. The 1936 reference Rosenlexikon states that it had a maroon center. An article written by his father in 1845 states that the nursery had multiple plants of what was referred to as R. berberifolia hardii.
What do you think? An early Hulthemia hybrid?
Stephen
Stephen, there is also an add’l reference from Dickson’s 1914 rose catalog over at HMF if you’ve not seen that.
From the Frank Cant & Company catalog, 1914-1915…
From Benjamin R. Cant & Sons, 1915-1916
These are the British catalogs of the period contained in the collection. I’ve browsed a few of the larger American nurseries listed of the period and haven’t found Vanessa.
If true then it would certainly be noteworthy.
I’ve always wondered if Cocker and Harkness got a running start with Hulthemia in the way that Pernet-Ducher did from the momentum his father-in-law had built up chasing carotenoids. Harkness’ father would have known about Vanessa, the Paul nursery was not far from the Harkness nursery.
Paul had the hybrid tea that led to ‘Dainty Bess’, known for its darker center. In reviewing their timeline, ‘Vanessa’ was bred when they were mostly doing HT types. It looks they had just begun to use roses descending from Rosa foetida/bicolor, but not foetida itself.
Their ‘Othello’ is stated to be “maroon-brown-red” in a reference a few years prior to ‘Vanessa’. 'Vanessa’s is stated to be a semi-double large-flowered rose with long petals. This does not sound like a bloom type easily associated with Rosa persica as a first generation, and getting a stable generation beyond that is known to be tricky.
‘Ards Rover’ of the 1890s has been referenced as “dark blackish red” and " crimson, shaded maroon-brown." I have seen some damask red types sunburn into an odd copper-crimson, but maroon-brown? No.
Another issue with the ‘Vanessa’ scenario is that the persica eyes zones we have seen tend to range from a pink streak to red eyes to purple eyes to deep purple eyes.
My estimate is that this is simply colorful wordplay on an exaggerated stamen color.
Rosa persica has been known in Europe since at least the 1830s, so anything is possible, but I personally doubt it is responsible for this case.
I would guess that its more likely a case of maroon stamens that are concurrently brassy.
This may be a question that can be answered.
The successor company to the successor company to William Paul Nurseries is Van Hage Garden Centres, Great Amwell and is still in business. Though a long shot it would not surprise me that the company has an archive.
That would be great for someone to try. I tried similar with Dickson, but got a very cold response, lol. Hopefully someone could be successful with querying other legacy rose institutions.
It’s purely circumstantial evidence of course, but there’s an 1883 reference from The Garden by Jean Sisley recorded at HelpMeFind.com under R. persica stating that he had sent seeds of the species itself to William Paul two years earlier. R. x hardii, while undoubtedly the earliest recorded hybrid of R. persica, was said to be completely sterile and would have been pretty unlikely as a parent. You would think that there would have been some special mention made if a rose like ‘Vanessa’ had actually arisen from that kind of lineage, too.
I agree. It would still be worthwhile to reach out. Even if they cannot comment on that rose, they could have other information to add to HMF that was not previously referenced.