Since miniature stature is a dominant trait and recurrent blooming is a recessive one, if I hybridize a recurrent blooming miniature (with R. rouletii background) with a large, once blooming multiflora rambler or a species rose which do not possess any recurrent gene (KSN-copia), what will I get? In theory, all F1 seedlings would be once blooming, but what about miniature? Would I got some dwarf but once blooming ones (in theory 1/2) which can be easily distinguished from its giant siblings? I know that Sweet Chariot (MORchari) is a descendant of a miniature (Magic Wand) and two giant, non-current ramblers (Cotton Candy and Violette), but evidently both rambler parents carries the recurrent blooming gene so SC is recurrent. Does a once blooming miniature really exist?
Hi @Mingwei and welcome!
From what I can see on HMF, yes there are several once-blooming miniatures listed.
For example, the ones Embriaco got by crossing reblooming miniatures with banksias.
Thanks !
Iād like to try multiflora ramblers x miniatures next spring to create miniatures with large inflorescence and good disease resistance as well as several other desirable traits. Miniatures x banksiae sounds interesting, I want to try if I can get banksiae with viable pollen. The main challenge is that I do not have too much room (and energy) to raise too many seedlings, so I have to discard useless ones as early as possible.
You want B. Lutescens. Its pollen has a bit of compatibility with other roses. There wonāt be many seeds with even fewer germinations and many will be addicted to mildew. You may find it useful using fertile triploid breeders. If you can obtain them, Ralph Mooreās triploid line through Golden Angel offers some fun, odd results. If you have a Premium Membership to Help Me Find-Roses, you can search by class and ploidy so finding a list of known triploid breeders is easy. Actually obtaining them is another matter, but at least that gives you a direction in which to look. You might also consider using Purezza pollen as thatās half Tom Thumb. Its seedlings are as weird and mildewy as Lutescsensā. If your climate has āheatā, Purezza will provide you with repeat flowering. Lutescens is once flowering but if you live in a cool, mild climate where it seems āspringā lasts for many months, it will provide you with flush after flush of bloom. In cool areas, Purezza is reluctant to provide much, if any ārepeatā. In areas where spring is short, followed by an actual HOT summer, Lutescens flowers then stops as soon as the heat arrives.
Thanks for your advice. Unfortunately R. banksiae lutescens is quite difficult to obtain for me, as well as Purezza and most Mooreās miniatures. Most banksiae roses I can get (R. banksiae banksiae and R. banksiae lutea) are almost sterile due to very distorted flower apparatus. However, I accidentally found a āsemi-doubleā white banksiae with normal pistils and some (although not many) normal stamens. Besides that, I found a yellow double banksiae can set several very small hips with 1-2 seeds. Perhaps they can serve as breeding materials if I can get them (I plan to graft them on R. cymosa seedlings). Both of them are thornless, which meet my demand if I can get viable, fertile seedlings from them, which seems very difficult.
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About Mooreās miniature, I can only get Sweet Chariot and Magic Carrousel, both are fertile but the latter is very prone to blackspot. I work a lot on SC this year and I plan to use more.
As a beginner, I have a lot to learn especially after finding some āweirdā things which Iād like to discuss later. Again thanks for the suggestions and I need to learn from all of you!
Definitely plant any Banksiae seeds you can find! Lutescens seed have germinated into everything from single, through semi double to fully double seedlings! All of that is contained within their genes. You may have to raise your own single type to work with. Itās unfortunate M.C. is prone to disease but put any pollen you can generate on everything you have which sets seed. SOMETHING is going to succeed and you never know what will act as a bridge between where you are and where you want to be. Donāt limit yourself to only Moore minis. Take any you can obtain and work with all of them. d
Thank you. I would do that next spring, and I also want to try āAnemoneā, which I use its pollen on SC but get NOTHING. I plan to use very fertile Chinas like āSlaterās Crimson Chinaā and ā Rouletiiā as the seed parent, and maybe I need to test the pollen viability first.
You can generate your own breeders from modern and even OGR types using Rouletii. Most of the older minis which used to be so plentiful in commerce were simply that.
If you have a Premium Membership on Help Me Find-Roses, you can use the Advanced Search to determine which roses are seed offspring and which are pollen offspring from Rouletti. Tom Thumb, one of the most used micro minis, resulted from Rouletti X Gloria Mundi. So, why not try Rouletti X Slaterās Crimson China? It would likely be easier than the reverse cross. Try pollen from any other healthy rose you grow on Rouletti to see what may result. You will very likely raise some fertile triploids of your own as many modern roses are tetraploid and Rouletti is diploid so you know there are bound to be triploids in the results. Definitely put any Banksiae pollen you can find on it. Thereās no telling what you may get!
I donāt plan to try Slaterās Crimson China x Rouletti, what I mean is āRoulettiā x āAnemoneā and āSlaterās Crimson Chinaā x āAnemoneā respectively. Maybe both seems crazy and likely impossible to success, they might be the most viable way for me to breed a reblooming, even small hybrid laevigata.
Why wouldanyone want a once blooming Miniature?
@Mingwei
I have Akira Ogawa (VIRrosea), which is a reblooming first generation hybrid of laevigata rosea pollen.
The seed parent is : (Bonica Ć { Mrs. B.R. Cant Ć [ Perle dāOr Ć R. bracteata]})
The rebloom is very good, it is healthy and it sets hips. I got mine from Novaspina nursery, maybe they can ship to your location.
Perhaps it might interest you for your project.
Thanks for giving me this information. Although it is almost impossible for me to get AO, At least I know hybrid Laevigata is able to produce nice, even fertile offspring. The lineage of AO seems excellent to breed a rose suitable for hot, humid climate.
However, when I browse the photos of AO on HMF, I found its leaves do not resemble to laevigate, more like a Tea, and even with spots.
Iām thinking what varieties I can cross with āAnemoneā. Perhaps Chinas and Teas seems the easiest, but maybe I can try something more hardy or more healthy.
I do not really want a once blooming Miniature, but if I cross a Miniature with a species rose, F1 must be once blooming. Since reblooming is recessive and miniature stature is dominant, I need to select F1 indiviauals which carry both genotypes for the next generation.
Indeed, the shiny leaves are basically lost in AO. In my area blackspot pressure is very low, so I canāt really assess that, but AO doesnāt seem to mildew, which is appreciated.
When I was looking into the topic of laevigata hybrids, I found a post by regretted forum member Karl K where he quoted Van Fleetās thoughts:
āA very striking common feature of the hundred or more Cherokee hybrids we have grown is the entire disappearance of the characteristics of the mother plant. In no instance were the hooked prickles and narrow glossy foliage of Cherokee reproduced.ā
But still, I hope you will try with laevigata and I wish you success!
The rest of the laevigata thread may be of interest to you as well, here is the link:
I have read this on HMF, and I read two Chinese articles about FAILURE of HT x laevigata. So I know that hybridizing with laevigata might be extremely difficult, and thatās partly why I choose āAnemoneā instead of R. laevigata.
But I still want to try with āAnemoneā or even laevigata because they are really charming.
If a wide cross is already difficult to make with R. laevigata, it would be made even more difficult with a tetraploid (such as many HT are) seed parent and a diploid (R. laevigata) pollen parent. Such a cross would probably succeed even less well with āAnemoneā as the pollen parent. Using a diploid like āRouletiiā or Sweet Chariot as a seed parent, you might find that you have better luck with pollen from a diploid species like R. laevigata than from a diploid hybrid like āAnemoneā.
I tried SC x āAnemoneā, about 20 flowers, NO hip set. I plan to try āRouletiiā x āAnemoneā next year, and maybe, as you suggest, 'Rouletiiā x laevigata and SC x laevigata. Or maybe laevigata x āAnemoneā? Oh, I seems crazy.