Paul, you should try Shockwave, too.
Im gonna try Shockwave x Golden Wings this year. I hope it sets seed well! Gold seed parents are very RARE. Many are either mechanically sterile, mildew prone or highly infertile. lol. Golds usually make better male parents due to this.
Im not a huge fan of Julia Child, but am loving Cinco de Mayo so far.
Hopefully Julia Child didnt inherit its cold sensitivity from New Year, its grandparent.
Another one for you: maybe Tequila will work, too. It is an apricot from Bonica x Golden Holstein. GH is DARK gold. It glows in the dark lol.
Jadae, are you referring to Tequila Sunrise? … something decending directly from Bonica is likely a good chioce to work with, as Bonica has been crown hardy for me even through some very rough winters.
Terry
No, Tequila. It is a floribunda-shrub from Meidiland. It is apricot-gold fading to pastel over time.
Some yellow roses, like ‘Golden Wings’, absolutely hate to be mulched and will have far fewer winter survival problems if they’re left alone in the north. Planting deep goes a long way toward increasing longevity - this is especially easy with grafted roses, less so with own-roots. I’m not sure where Julia Child is on the please-don’t-mulch-me scale, however.
No-one mentioned ‘Yellow Topaz’ or ‘Agnes’…they belong on the list.
I think people got tired of how sterile they are. – just my guess.
That’s good to know. Do neither carry any pollen? They’ve never quite made it into an order for me but I had always thought about buying them. If they’re both a dead-end then I’ll never bother either.
I think it is cause they are from very wide crosses and maybe triploid. I do not know for I have not delved into them personally – but many others here have.
Topaz Jewel is slightly fertile. It produces a decent amount of pollen, but I only have 1 seedling from spreading that pollen around. TJ will occasionally set OP hips (with 1-2 seeds). I collect those every year, and now have 2 OP seedlings from TJ. It is NOT a rose to use if you want a good return on your time, but it can be interesting to play with it.
I just read somewhere that ‘Agnes’ is pentaploid. I bet ‘Topaz Jewel’ may be in that boat also. What rules govern the breeding of pentaploid roses? Do you have to breed them with other pentaploids?
It seems easier to just start over with yellow rugosas in mind. Agnes and Topaz Jewel alike are pretty crappy roses with little to show in offspring for hard fought effort.
Cool! That was a quick response. I do understand your position. here’s my reasoning and correct me if I’m out on a limb.
I’m quoting this:
“Polyploid speciation appears to take place mainly by interspecific hybridization between related taxa, which results in alloploids or autoalloploids depending on the degree of relatedness between the hybridizing genotypes.”
Kordes used his R. kordesii to good affect. It, too, was a wide rugosa cross. An OP (selfed) R. rugosa x R wichuraiana cross. I’m wondering if the original plant was pentaploid also but produced an amphidiploid when selfed. If so, it seems that this would be a viable avenue to follow on other wide rugosa crosses. There are some other pentaploid roses that could be interesting to see if better results are obtained when crossing pentaploid with pentaploid…highdownensis, felicia, R. laxa inermis, R. nutkana, R. primula, etc.
Topaz Jewell has been verified as a diploid. While it is possible that Agnes is a pentaploid, it is more likely that it is a triploid. To be a pentaploid, the R.foetida pollen would have to have been unreduced, meaning 4n instead of the normal 2n. While this is not unheard of, it is rare.
The diploid Robin Hood is known to produce 2n eggs. Also Max Graff has produced 2n eggs. David Z has several Max Graff seedlings that are tetraploid where the pollen parent is most likely John Davis. It has been speculated that R.kordesii is most likely a Max Graf cross with a tetraploid pollen parent rather than a self. This would explain the double flowers and recurrent bloom.
Where did you get your information on ploidy from? R.primula usually is a diploid, R.nutkana is usually a hexaploid and R.laxa is usually a tetraplid. I have cuttings of highdownensis that I plan to have a root tip squash done on to verify the ploidy of it. If it is a hybrid of R.moyesii x “K of K”, then it should be a pentaploid.
I’m sorry for the delay. I have limited computer time. I pulled most of the ploidy info from the phd thesis on breeding disease resistant roses .pdf file from this thread:
http://www.rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=17605#17605
Helpmefind shows R. foetida to be tetraploid. I know that in some cases the ploidy info on helpmefind is incorrect…(ie Mrs. RM Finch- “slightly fertile” triploid…see ploidy of mother).
I find Max Graff interesting because it is also considered to be normally infertile suggesting it may not be diploid as suggested…but I’ve not done any chromosome counting.
BTW. I disagree with the guys thesis from above. It is NOT necessary to go back to species to gain disease resistance. You MIGHT have to go through a triploid though. Knockout seedlings carry good disease resistance and are continual bloomers. I have three other roses besides knockout that are absolutely, completely disease free… but all are once blooming, no-name roses I have found and took cuttings of.
I’m glad to hear the ploidy of topaz jewel…I still think I might buy at least one of these roses someday. And I have to say something. Mr Moore grew and sold several hundred roses, this perspective should give one the ability to be a pretty good judge on rose quality. His style is different than some breeders but the sheer amount of roses he has grown would give him the ability to spot a good rose from a bad and he patented topaz jewel. nuf said.
I confirmed Max Graf as diploid. It is just relatively infertile I believe because it is a wide cross and chromosomes of R. rugosa and R. wichuriana have a hard time recognizing and pairing during meiosis to form gametes with a complete set of chromosomes. Unreduced gametes are commonly the ones that get through and what one does get from it in crosses. I did get a 2x seedling in a cross with a diploid polyantha though. There is a nice 4x seedling with probably the neighboring John Davis (triploid) as the male parent. It is quite fertile and in the future I hope to do more work with it. Each year I was able to collect up to a few dozen op hips off of my 5 Max Graf plants each with mainly one, but sometimes 2 seeds. One year I actually went through and pollinated open flowers with bulked 4x repeat blooming males and got more seed than usual. One can easily get some hips on it and offspring. The idea that it is so infertile is a nice exaggeration to make the development of R. x kordesii seem so unlikely and awe inspiring like a magical fairytale. There are other roses that are far less fertile. I think of ‘Topaz Jewel’ as less fertile and harder to get offspring from than ‘Max Graf’. It has been done of course. Joan Monteith did it!
Sincerely,
David
Thanks for above. Out of curiousity; because R. rugosa is somewhat remontant, shouldn’t it follow that there would be at least some remontancy in the f2 of a rogosa-single blooming species cross?
Maybe a change of topic but I’m curious if anyone has tried a R. foetida x R. hugonis cross. Hugonis grows quite well for me but foetida suffers from bs.
If the single blooming parent is a diploid like R.rugosa then theoretically 25% of the f2s could be remontant.
If the single blooming species parent is a tetraploid then the f1s would most likely be triploid. There are possibilities that they could be diploid or tetraploid as well, but if every thing goes according to plan then they should be triploid.
Assuming the f1s are triploid and fertile, then the f2s could also be diploids, triploids or tetraploid. The majority of them would also be triploid though. At best, a small portion of these triploids would have 2 copies of the remontant gene, so the plant may have some remontancy, but probably not fully so. But the majority of the f2s probalby would not be remontant.
One way that one could work around this is to use a first generation tetraploid hybrid that is a hardy once bloomer x repeat bloomer to cross with the R.rugosa. One would have a 1 in six chance of fully remontant offspring and a 1 in 36 chance a fully hardy, fully remontant offspring in the first generation. If the hardy once bloomer is closely related to R.rugosa (i.e. in the cinnamomae section), then the hybrid x R.rugosa offspring hopefully would also be fertile, even though they would most likely be triploids.
I tried several of these crosses this year and most if not all have taken. Crosses of Darts Dash x J5 and Showey Pavement x Geschinds Orden took. Curiously, crosses of Darts Dash x Bonica and Darts Dash x Honeysweet failed. It’ll be interesting to see how the ones that took turn out.