Why the USA restricts rose imports from Oz

Henry, let me ask you a question…Why do you think none of the nurseries who obtained the tested/treated stock from Malcolm Manners ever made that information public? You basically have three nurseries out of all of them, who actually advertise treated stock. Heirloom, who has categorically stated all of their roses are “virus free” because they are own root. You have Pickering who has stated they have had all of their stock tested/treated. You have Vintage who advertises the specific Davis VI material they have propagated.

What happened to the nurseries who got treated/tested stock from Malcolm? Why have none of them ever advertised that fact? I have never read in a catalog nor on line where any nursery has advertised they have cleaned stock from Florida. I know Arena obtained Huey there, but that is from him TELLING me he obtained it from “Lakeland” personally while we were in Wasco.

If this is such a hot issue; if it so all mighty important to the US consumer, WHY have none of these other nurseries ever advertised this or that variety is tested/treated? Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I’m unaware of that EVER having been advertised by any American nursery other than the three mentioned above. Why IS that, Henry?

Later edit…Excuse me, J&P did advertise their RMV removed material just prior to their demise. But, where are the ads for the nurseries who obtained the Florida RMV cleaned stock? They didn’t keep track of who got what, per Malcolm’s admission. Where are the ads from RU and ARE, and the others who received the cleaned OGRs? Why do you suppose they have all elected to keep this information secret?

Kim asked: “Henry, let me ask you a question…Why do you think none of the nurseries who obtained the tested/treated stock from Malcolm Manners ever made that information public?”

H.Kuska reply. I do not know that that is the case.

For the rest of your questions/comments, it would appear that your questions(s) should be addressed to the particular nursieries and/or to individuals who have worked closely with them… I can comment on the science involved in rose virus behavior and can communicate the published concern of scientists/governments towards the risk of distributing virused plants and my personal problems and problems communicated to me by other cool weather rose growers with keeping many virused roses alive in cooler climates like my northern Ohio zone 5.

Kim, is your point with your last post to say that you don’t think that plant viruses are a concern to people who buy plants? What is the point regarding Manners’ cleaned stock? I’m missing the implications.

It appears that information concerning which roses have been virused indexed may be more easily available soon:

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/qcs.php?categoryID=33&topicID=200&threadID=66734&qcID=66735&tab=2&rdir=1#q66735

Unless changed since, this is the situation in New Jersey.

http://law.njstatelib.org/law_files/imported/Research_Guides/Law/njregister/volume22number14%20page2063-2202.pdf

(Use your PDF search command with the search term rose, not the browser search command.)


This is a 1985 California document.

Again (Use your PDF search command with the search term rose, not the browser search command.)

There is a small handful on GW who are vocal about seeking RMV cleaned material, particularly OGRs. I’ve found it speaks volumes that this material HAS been available, and presumably offered commercially, yet it’s been kept secret. Malcolm stated that no list had been kept stating what nurseries had received which material, and none of the nurseries are talking. Why?

Personally, I don’t believe most consumers nor nurseries are that concerned about RMV or any other virus. It’s something we’ve successfully lived with for the majority of the last century. It is a marketing tool for Heirloom and Pickering, probably a bit more for Pickering as they do provide wholesale business. Being able to say with certainty theirs is cleaned from RMV puts them in a very desirable position and affords them the ability to have the work accomplished. Both nurseries advertise ALL of their roses are free from RMV.

From pretty much every other American nursery’s position, it is potentially disastrous. Advertising some of your material as “cleaned from RMV”, but not all, raises too many questions. It requires each individual nursery operator to become more expert with the virus issue. An issue which the majority have already chosen to avoid entirely. Some state they rough out any plants which exhibit symptoms and will replace those shipped which do, but most simply don’t even address it, and historically haven’t. Particularly those who have reportedly obtained cleaned stock.

Nurseries making a greater issue of RMV infection in their catalogs and web sites make themselves greater targets. As has already been mentioned, it’s surprising more litigation hasn’t been initiated against suppliers of infected stock. Advertising this or that variety has been tested/treated potentially creates customer service issues with those, and the other varieties the nurseries offer. Both Uncommon and Euro Desert experienced over the top customer service issues with unstable sports reverting and causing them enormous service issues with customers who refused to be satisfied, even though their web sites clearly stated no guaranty could be made against the sport reverting. Even after replacing the plants at no charge and refunding them, their customers pushed the issue further, reporting Uncommon to the BBB and trade organizations for shipping the “wrong plant”. That mentality exists in the market. All it takes is one of those to monopolize you for weeks to months. I would suggest for many, operating these businesses is more a labor of love than a profit engine. The profit really isn’t there and keeping them alive and well is increasingly more difficult with each passing season.

Electronic media makes dissatisfaction an immediate fire to be dealt with. It can, and has, dented many reputations. There are many ways for one disgruntled person to cause grief, and many who are more than willing to engage in it. There was a particularly ugly thread a few years ago on GW concerning exactly this. A contributor railed against Arena Roses for “infecting” Sombreuil with virus by budding it. No reasoning could get through to the poster that Arena had not necessarily been responsible for the infection. Arena had obtained VI root stock and had made every effort to obtain VI material, when and where it was available. The variety had been budded for countless generations prior to Arena obtaining it and any of those buddings could easily have been the source of infection. That wasn’t good enough. The plant originated from Arena, therefore Arena was guilty of the infection.

Advertising cleaned from RMV (or any other issue) material automatically makes that variety and the nursery offering it, a target. If the material exhibits any symptoms, whose responsibility is it to prove whether it is RMV or not? The testing facilities assume no responsibility for anything. They test and clean the stock, but if something goes wrong, it is not their fault nor their responsibility to do anything about it. They assume no liability for any legal issues arising from the sale of material they processed. The nurseries are expected to guaranty the material. Avoiding the issue entirely and simply replacing or refunding a plant to provide good customer service, affords them the protection of not having to engage in lengthy correspondence and continuing defense against why their VI material showed this or that symptom. Not to infer that treatment isn’t effective. That’s been beaten to death already. I maintain that material promoted as VI or otherwise tested and cleaned, becomes a potential liability, especially for a small nursery. Quietly obtaining what there was to obtain out of pride for your product and business, and offering it without fanfare seems to have been the preferred choice for many.

RMV infection is out of the control of most nurserymen. Too few varieties exist and are easily available for most of them to obtain. I agree, I would rather have plants without RMV. I don’t believe it is fair, or even realistic, to expect small nurseries to expose themselves to the kinds of costs, service issues and other problems associated with having to educate their customers to the whole RMV issue. Yes, all that information can be explained on the web site or in a catalog and some will actually read it. For the zealots who push such things past the point of absurdity, this paints too large a target on the nursery and nurseryman. I honestly believe this is why most have chosen not to advertise the fact they have obtained and are offering this material. Better to do what you can quietly and not potentially expose yourself to time consuming, expensive incidents.

In looking at any rose issue I often find it useful to look at how other plant societies have approached it. The following is the American Hosta Society position:

http://www.americanhostasociety.org/Viruses.html


The following was stated: “Personally, I don’t believe most consumers nor nurseries are that concerned about RMV or any other virus. It’s something we’ve successfully lived with for the majority of the last century.”

H.Kuska comment: I have tried to document (see my link below) that roses have an immune system that is better able to fight viruses such as PNRSV in hot climates. Thus, I suggest that experiences about roses virus behavior in hot climates may not be applicable to cooler climates.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/high_temperature_effect_on_pnrsv.htm

This August 2012 paper from scientists at Cornell University is (in my mind) an example why the USDA would publish the warning about ornamental plant viruses potentially spreading to commercial food crops.

Don said: " Last fall I toured Foundation Plant Services at UC Davis and saw them testing roses for virus infection (they graft them to strawberry plants of all things) and where infected stocks are routinely ‘cured’ of viruses. It is amazing what those folks can do."

H.Kuska comment: It appears that roses and plants such as strawberries, raspberries, blueberries, blackberries, etc(?) must share molecular characteristics such that some viruses find it relatively easy to make the “jump” from one to the others. This would be consistent with the following: One of the “possibilities” is that R. Setigera is a natural hybrid between a rose and “something like a blackberry”. (I use quotes because the possibility was brought up in another RHA thread but no documentation was offered.)

The following is a description of Blackberry chlorotic ringspot virus (BCRV) which infects roses and is transfered through rose seeds ("The BCRV virus is reported to have a 58% multiflora rose seed transmission rate (the following is a quote from the thesis: “and should act as an alarm bell to breeders because of the high percentage of seed transmission.”). ").

http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/Blackberry%20chlorotic%20ringspot%20virus%20(BCRV).htm


Davis has a rose pamphlet but it was last revised in 2004. They also have a 2008 strawberry pamphlet which you may find worth reading. To me of particular interest is that the use of ELISA testing is not mentioned but the more sensitive PCR testing is and that heat treatment is not used alone but is followed by a tissue culture (meristem tip growth) step.


The following link is to a 2004 report of Strawberry latent ringspot virus Infecting Roses in India.

There has never been an issue determining which varieties have been tested/treated from those who have CHOSEN to make that information known. There is zero need for HMF or any other venue to offer to become a clearing house for that information. The ONLY sources who have wished to state what has been “cleaned” or not have already done that openly. Re: Heirloom and Pickering. No one else offering anything tested or treated has offered any information about it other than Vintage with their VI entries. You have found another non-issue to correct, Henry. If the offering nurseries have selected NOT to indicate their roses are RMV free and why on their sites and in their catalogs, your urging anyone else to make it easy for them to indicate that information elsewhere is not going to change their silence.

Thanks, Kim, I guess that clarifies it :slight_smile:

I try to avoid virused breeding stock when I can but VID stock is just not available for the rare, often proprietary, cultivars that I like to work with.

I would also like to know which of my breeders and seedlings are actually virused. This got me to wondering how I could go about finding out.

First I turned to the FPS price list at UC Davis which puts the minimum cost per cultivar at $500 - ouch.

Then I thought heck, if they can do it I can do it. A bit of googling and presto, I found I can purchase my very own ELISA kit that lowers my costs to about $2 per sample plus my time and effort. The hitch is that the kit only tests for Prunus Necrotic Ringspot Virus.

Still, with biotechnology being what it is there’s a sort of “Moore’s Law” similar to the one driving the cost of computers down. I figure that pretty soon some entrepeneur will come along (David Z. are you listening?) and offer a suite of tests that will be comprehensive and inexpensive.

Will the demand, cost and capability converge such that I’ll be able to stamp my seedlings as being VID or am I barking up a tree?

I HOPE you aren’t barking up a tree! It would be lovely to be able to know, but, for the reasons I’ve stated above, I would never presume to promote any rose I offered anyone as “virus free”, ANY virus free. That one can far too easily come back to bite you in the butt! For your (and my) own peace of mind, absolutely. For us to share with each other when sharing the material, sure, being able to say “I tested it and found nothing there” is really neat, but you and I aren’t going to hit the Inter Net and trash each other, report each other to anyone who will listen, file legal actions against one another, etc. There are many zealots out there who not only will, but HAVE, over much more trivial issues.

Along with that series of home tests, I would love to see the companion series of being able to test which strains of black spot a rose is resistant to and how resistant it is genetically to rust and mildew. Imagine being able to walk into a nursery, scan a leaf and know what to expect from it before whipping out your Charg-All card! LOL!

Kim, you may know which nurseries offer which virus tested roses, but does that mean other prospective rose growers do? Help-Me-Find means just that - “Help”. As I understand the proposal, the listing of virused tested roses is optional. Nurseries that feel as you apparently do can continue not to list that information. I am not on the Help-Me-Find board. They will make the decision.

Regarding your statement: “You have found another non-issue to correct, Henry.”

H. Kuska comment: As you yourself has quoted, I stated here: “It appears that information concerning which roses have been virused indexed may be more easily available soon:”

"H.Kuska comment. "This is a discussion. In another discussion on this topic (on another forum) I stated:

"H.Kuska comment. I realize what experience you have had and that is one of the reasons that I posted my suggestion to this site. i.e. your experience is often sought out by long term posters in the rose forums.

I stated previously: “I brought up a possibility. This is an open forum. In forums, possibilities are discussed. After a discussion of pros and cons and alternate ways of handling the issue, if there would be sufficient interest, then a formal compromise request by Help-Me-Find members could be made to Help-Me-Find’s board to consider (or the whole idea could be scrapped).”

Please notice the use of: “formal compromise request”

AND

“(or the whole idea could be scrapped).”


Henry, whether or not HMF does anything with the virus reporting request or not is not my decision, nor do I have any inside information about it. Re read the GW thread where the information was made public. I had no prior knowledge about who received what and it required my asking several direct questions to have it slip out that FSU’s VI material went to those specific nurseries, but that no record was kept as to what went to whom. That was not my “insider information” and the entire world has the same access to that thread as you and I have. Your argument that I may know but no one else does, does not hold water.

If ARE, RU and the others have chosen NOT to publicize they have obtained RMV cleaned material and offered it for sale, what in creation makes you think by providing them with one more, or one million more places to disclose it, they are going to?

If not regularly controlled VI is a worthless mention.

Virus indexation is date related.

For some susceptible plants i.e. Pelargonium Virus and other microorganisms indexation is supposed to be annual.

There are viruses every where specially in a nursery or a breeders plot and infection is so easy.

Kim, the other readers can decide whether my points are as you interpret them. To make it easier for them to do so, whenever possible, please put my exact quote that you are discussing in quotes.

I appreciate your request, Henry. The other forum members are intelligent ladies and gentlemen and are completely able to understand and find the quotes if necessary. It is not the traditionally accepted forum form to have to place quotes in responses. I respectfully decline.

However, instead of changing the subject, I would appreciate your answering my direct question.

If ARE, RU and the others have chosen NOT to publicize they have obtained RMV cleaned material and offered it for sale, what in creation makes you think by providing them with one more, or one million more places to disclose it, they are going to?

Kim has asked: “If ARE, RU and the others have chosen NOT to publicize they have obtained RMV cleaned material and offered it for sale, what in creation makes you think by providing them with one more, or one million more places to disclose it, they are going to?”


H.Kuska comment: This is what I had stated in this thread before you asked the above question the first time: “As I understand the proposal, the listing of virused tested roses is optional. Nurseries that feel as you apparently do can continue not to list that information.”

Thank you. As far as I can determine, ALL of the receiving nurseries “feel as I do”. None have shared the information, none are going to share it should another opportunity present itself. Therefore, making any changes to HMF, or any other database or web site to accommodate sharing of that information would be a complete waste of time, money, effort and energy.

I suggest, if you desire for that information to be made more publicly available, create a link to the original Garden Web thread in which it was disclosed so you may post it on your web site and where ever, whenever else you desire.

The necessity for anyone to create another venue for them to post it is a complete “non issue”, requiring no correction or any further action. I am, therefore, finished with it.

Kim I am very confused. The Help-Me-Find proposal is at Help-Me-Find. Why do you address your comments to me? Isn’t that where you should be addressing your comments? At present there is no comment there from you. I am not on the board. My name does not appear (and never did) as one of the commenters. The comment by someone from Help-Me-Find who answered the original request does, at present, appear very favorable to the idea. I will not quote it here as it is my understanding that comments there can be withdrawn and/or modified.