I was thinking of something similar, though the only yellow along the same lines I have is ‘Golden Chersonese’. This is another rose that is unusual to me, probably in much the same way that foetida is, because it produces an enormous amount of pollen but it rarely forms many OP hips and I haven’t been able to get it to ‘stick’ to anything yet either. I did have one hip form on rugosa ‘Alba’ but an animal got the hip before I could harvest it so I don’t know whether it was a hybrid or not. Repeating the cross onto rugosa ‘Alba’ failed. I know others here have used ‘Golden Chersonese’ and managed to get hybrids. I was thinking if foetida was a hybrid with something like ecae that was in the same area (in the Middle East) then maybe ‘Golden Chersonese’ would work on foetida though I doubt it would do much to intensify the yellow though my plants seem to produce flowers with excellent yellow saturation:
[attachment 803 goldenchersonese1.jpg]
Maybe getting it together with ‘Harisonii’ would be a decent idea. I once had a hip on ‘Golden Chersonese’ from ‘Temple Bells’ (wichurana hybrid) that also got eaten by something before I could harvest it.
It seems to me that the likely homeland for these roses would most likely be in the region of Pakistan or Afghanistan. I reason this on a few thoughts. I think it is a mountain or a high steep plant from a dry climate. Next it seemed to spread eastward by man more than it own means. Lastly the silk road at one time ran through both nations. After this it only took the islamic nations of the middle east to adopt it and spread it through out their empire. Now assuming man spread it and not nature, it would be reasonable to assume they spread a few of the better clones and not the general species. This would explain the lake of fertility if it had a gene that prevent self crossing. The minor variation that we see at times could be explained through mutation of viruses impacting the genetic code. But this is all a guess. Until a stand of genetically diverse specimens are found I think we will always be standing scratching our heads.
I agree that Rosa foetida seems to be a mountain plant from a region with dry summers. The short-lived leaves are found in other plants inhabiting similar regions. There is a South American Amaryllis (Hippeastrum) that flowers and produces leaves that last only 3-4 months. Also, an Australian crinum, Crinum flaccidum. Coincidentally, both also bear yellow flowers.
Another bit of information came from the Russian plant breeder, Ivan Michurin. He crossed the Damask, Kazanlik, with Persian Yellow. The seedlings died when they reached a height of about 5 cm. He saved the rest by bark-grafting them to Rosa canina seedlings. When he dug up the plants three years later, he found that they “had absolutely smooth roots, without any branchings and fibrils”.
It is well known that apple scions can alter the structure of seedling rootstocks. So much so that experienced nurserymen can identify the scion variety by looking at the form of the roots. This appears to be what happened with Michurin’s roses, and suggests that the R. foetida “heredity” forced the Canina seedlings to adopt a taproot habit that would be appropriate to a species that relies primarily on water stored in the soil (presumably from melted snow), rather than on rain.
The Hopi corn also produces deep roots with few branches. The seedlings need to get to the deeper, moist soil before their roots can spread out.
Note to Simon: As I recall, the note I want was near the beginning of the section on Polyanthas. I just hope I’m remembering the right book.
Different book, Karl. This book, titled ‘Macoboy’s Roses’ just lists the various cultivars in three sections; species, minis, and everything else with various features of interest spread out throughout the book. Unfortunately nothing on the various groups of roses.
Karl I did not know that about the tap roots. That is awsome. I wonder what hormone is responsable for that. And if we could identify it I think it would have commercial aplications for places like southwerstern united states. Especially if it works on not just roses.
I have been exchanging emails with Peter Harris, who has been collecting all the info he can find on ‘Harison’s Yellow’ and the numerous imposters that travel under that name. There are quite a few. Many are probably OP seedlings of ‘Harison’s Yellow’. But ‘Williams’ Double Yellow’ and ‘Williams’ Superb Yellow’ were originals from England that reached the U.S. early and no doubt were mistaken for HY. Then there were ‘Feast’s Seedling’ and Hogg’s several yellows, all presumably seedlings from ‘Harison’s Yellow’.
‘Allard’ is probably the seedling raised by Prof. Allard from seeds of HY. Doorenbos crossed it with a spinosissima, and in the F2 raised ‘Ormiston Roy’, grandparent of ‘Golden Wings’.
The big surprise in all this is that most of the various specimens called ‘Harison’s Yellow’ that have been found are triploid. So is ‘Persian Yellow’, ‘Hazeldean’ (R. altaica x either ‘Persian Yellow’ or ‘Harison’s Yellow’) and all the seedlings of ‘Hazeldean’ that Peter has found.
What’s going on?
Something suspiciously similar happens in the genus Rubus. A diploid blackberry crossed with a diploid raspberry produced only triploids and tetraploids. Not a diploid hybrid in the bunch. Darlington (1949) wrote, “We have to visualise a single super-gene consisting of many parts with mutually adjusted effects.”
In other words, it may be that such a “super-gene” exists on one or more chromosomes of Rosa foetida that creates a physiological disturbance in hybrids with most other species. The only way for an embryo to be fully viable is for the “super-gene” to be excluded. And then the other chromosomes are excluded as well to maintain other necessary balances.
One notable exception is ‘Lady Penzance’, (R. rubiginosa x R. foetida bicolor). An irregular pentaploid (4+1) pollinated by a regular tetraploid (2+2) should give a hexaploid offspring, which is just what happened. Apparently all those unpaired chromosomes dilute or override the influence of this (hypothetical) foetida super-gene.
That’s the best I can come up with at the moment.
Has anyone tried crossing spinosissima and foetida?
When I got back from vacation the other day I noticed a few blooms on one of the branches of R. foetida bicolor this branch has reverted back to the more yellow form unlike the rest of the bush. I think the recent heat or maybe all the smoke has caused it to push out a few blooms but I am not sure. But interesting anyways.
“Multiflora x Persian Yellow has produced with us a climbing variety, having buds of flaming nasturtium scarlet, opening into yellow double blooms which successively change to white and finally to pale rose.”
